Re: The Desolation of Smaug pre-release thread [3] [SPOILERS]

[Bluebottle]

It is strange that they would fiddle around so much with the designs.

Take the dwarfs for instance. I never really liked the design Peter Jackson gave the dwarfs in the Lord of the Rings movies but at least it was consistent. With both Glóin and Gimli. We even got a shot of the seven dwarf lords Sauron gave the seven rings and they all looked uniformely the same.

They chucked all that out of the window with The Hobbit for some reason.

[Mrs Figg]

I would prefer 13 generic LOTR type Dwarves than the discordant cheap mess we got. The only Dwarves I like are Balin, Gloin and Oin.

[Pettytyrant101]

The dwarves at the Council of Elrond looked fine too. And nothing like the ones in TH.

[bungobaggins]

Bifur would be a pretty good dwarf if they took that stupid axe out of his head.  

[Mrs Figg]

what I dont like is the way they all look so OTT like comic caricatures rather than a serious people. ok they were bumbling around most of the time, but in their own heads they had dignity, if in the case of Thorin a little too much.

[Eldorion]

mmm, not to doubt your source Eldo but that doesnt seem to quite fit.
Bolg, or someone who looks very like him appears in the Battle of Arse and Bull, and the design was also widely promoted as Bolg in spin off merchandise, such as the lego sets.
If it was meant to be Azog all along why would they give it to the merchandise makers as Bolg?  

Why did the LOTR Trading Card Game claim that Prince Imrahil made an appearance in The Return of the King? I don't know who makes all the decisions for spin-off merchandise like that.

[Bluebottle]

Yeah, and that was rather opposite of how Tolkien wrote it as well. With the elves teasing and making fun of the rather grumpy, in their eyes at least, reserved and honourable dwarfs.

The big problem with Thorin for me was that they made him a hero wich he certainly wasn't in the book. In the book Thorin missed Smaugs attack on the Lonely mountain because he was out and about fooling around as a young dwarf prince might do. And I think the Thorin of the book blamed himself for that for the rest of his life. In the film he not only saves first his father and then his grandfather but he also leads the dwarfs in their defence against Smaug. By making him this heroic figure they make his character static and if he has little to blame himself for he won't get the redemption that he gets during the Battle of five armies, when he for the first and last time lives up to his title as King under the mountain.

[halfwise]

The Hero as static character is certainly a good point. But remember they used this argument to make Aragorn into a ditherer in LoTR. It is interesting that the Thorin in the appendices is nothing like the early Thorin in the book, and I could understand the temptation to gravitate towards hero-Thorin. But then why did they leave the remaining dwarves as a comic troop?

It has to be admitted that Tolkien created something that didn't make much sense: 13 dwarves setting off to tackle a dragon. It worked because he kept it as a children's book (though the hero Thorin that appeared at the end was something of a puzzle in retrospect).

The movie tried to get the best of both worlds: Thorin was the serious hero, his dwarves were the children's book illustration. It's a hodge-podge that never made sense. They would have done better to keep it as a children's movie.

[Eldorion]

I think you guys raise some really interesting points about his character.  I like the whole redemption angle in Bluebottle's post. I do understand where Halfy is coming from talking about the nonsensicalities of the book, but I can't say it's ever bothered me that much because I just go along with the story.  I do know a few people who can't stand how kiddy The Hobbit is.  I definitely agree that the movie tried to have it both ways and failed at that, though.

[Eldorion]

Some quotes from Evangeline Lilly on Tauriel, from Entertainment Weekly via TORn.  SPOILERS!

http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/11/09/81955-evangeline-lilly-reveals-the-background-of-tauriel/

That’s a great question, “What does she want?”, because that’s what drives every story. And for me, …the most exciting thing about playing this character, was that in a film that was male-driven, and driven by people with selfish aims, that want things for themselves, whether that be their title or their crown or their jewels, or whatever else… Tauriel is one of the few characters in the film who is purely fighting for truth and for justice. And she cares more about those two things than she does about any private, and personal, gain.

You mentioned something that sort of triggered something in my mind, which is ‘Tell me something about her past’ and a lot of people won’t know because it doesn’t have a place in the film anymore. At one point it kind of did, but a part of Tauriel’s backstory is that she is an orphan. Her parents were killed by orcs. When you understand that, you suddenly understand how and why this girl became the lethal killing machine that she is, how she became the head of the elven guard, how she got taken under Thranduil’s wings, and why she’s so passionate about fighting the evil that is in Middle Earth.

The elves were always my favourite, and then once I read The Silmarillion, I was completely honoured that I was playing one of these characters, and even more in love with them than I had been before.

[Bluebottle]

Thank you for that. 

It's not really the "silly dwarf" characteristics I'm missing in Thorin though. The Thorin of the book has several characteristics that he doesn't share with the other dwarfs. While he certainly has earned the right to think highly of himself he does still strike at least this reader as pompus and self opinionated. When he's finally in the possesion of Smaugs treasure he's consumed by greed for it. Not only the part that belonged to his grandfather, but he secretly hopes he can keep all of it. He meets the quite friendly, at first, aproach by Thranduil and Bard with anger and resentment, though some of that is certainly understandable. It's only when he and the other dwarfs rush out of the mountain to join the battle that he finally lives up to his title as king.

So that is the journey I see in him. A self oppinionated and pompus dwarf of little real importance outside his heritage who goes through consumation of greed for Smaugs treasure to redemption in the battle of five armies. In the film he already is the hero, from the first few moments of it.

[bungobaggins]

Some quotes from Evangeline Lilly on Tauriel, from Entertainment Weekly via TORn.  SPOILERS!

http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/11/09/81955-evangeline-lilly-reveals-the-background-of-tauriel/

That’s a great question, “What does she want?”,

She wants the "D"! Either LEGOlas or Kili, or both.

[bungobaggins]

Okay, so a made up character is going to be the moral compass of the film? The character that's just off to the side that's like "Well, if you'd change your mind and see it my way..." and then she'll be like "I told you so!" in the end? Seems a little preachy to me.

[Bluebottle]

I do get the criticism of the lack of female characters, but to stop there I think is doing Tolkien a disservice.

A lot of people forget that probably the most defining thing in Tolkiens younger years was his participation in the 1. World War. Many of his dearest school friends were killed in the war. In Tolkiens time in the trenches and at the Somme there wasn't a woman to be seen. I don't mean that either negatively or positively, it's just a fact.

I think that perspective is often forgotten when the lack of women in The Hobbit is discussed.

[Lancebloke]

I don't think there is a lack of female characters. I am not sure there is a need for any. I can see in the film how there would be supporting female characters.... we know there are women in middle earth after all.

The scope of the story, I think, is very limited. Basically, they spend most of their time on their own apart from a few meetings with a couple of Elves and then lots of Goblins/Orcs. Is there really a need?

[Bluebottle]

Yeah, I think you have a point there.

And to drag my 1. world war point a bit further. Picture Bilbo and the dwarfs as Tolkien and his friends going of to the 1. world war. The story is about 15 male characters going on an adventure together in a harsh and unfriendly world. With the small amount of characters there is in the book to begin with I'm pretty ambivalent to their gender.

And it's not like Tolkien didn't put strong female characters in other longer stories that he wrote. Like Eowyn and Galadriel.

[Pettytyrant101]

This whole feminine energy required is a load of balls.
Theres loads of films, many of them classics which dont have female roles- dont remember a lot female roles in the Great escape, or Dam Busters (and yes I have deliberately chosen war films as TH is basically about a young man who is recruited to go fight in a foreign distant land against an enemy he has never met)

[bungobaggins]

Maybe Boyens will want to add feminine energy when Jackson eventually remakes Dam Busters.

[Forest Shepherd]

Some quotes from Evangeline Lilly on Tauriel, from Entertainment Weekly via TORn.  SPOILERS!

You mentioned something that sort of triggered something in my mind, which is ‘Tell me something about her past’ and a lot of people won’t know because it doesn’t have a place in the film anymore. At one point it kind of did, but a part of Tauriel’s backstory is that she is an orphan. Her parents were killed by orcs. When you understand that, you suddenly understand how and why this girl became the lethal killing machine that she is, how she became the head of the elven guard, how she got taken under Thranduil’s wings, and why she’s so passionate about fighting the evil that is in Middle Earth.

I believe someone mentioned fan fiction? The underlined seems so familiar.. Oh yes! because it appears in EVERY SINGLE FAN FICTION PIECE EVER!!

What cliched tripe.

[Tinuviel]

I'm taking classes right now that are obsessed with feminine energy and equality, one of them saying that LOTR fails in terms of a feminist rating because every female in the story is talking about a man or does things because of men, which is mainly true, but then again it was written during a time when women were still being characterized as objects for men. Tolkien gives the women in his stories a beauty and strength that wasn't fathomed when he was growing up. Quite frankly, I wish he'd made a female character for the Hobbit, but it's a kids book; nobody (should) be worrying about how gender-equal it is!

[Pettytyrant101]

I just fundamentally do not believe that in order to tell a story which can appeal to a broad range of people you have to include one of everything for everyone.
Its got nothing to do with telling a good story.

[Eldorion]

I believe someone mentioned fan fiction? The underlined seems so familiar.. Oh yes! because it appears in EVERY SINGLE FAN FICTION PIECE EVER!!

What cliched tripe.

That was the part that jumped out the most at me too, Forest.  Besides fanfic, I used to do a bit of Tolkien role-playing on another forum, and I'm pretty sure I've seen literally everything about Tauriel done before, and better, by RPers.  Parents killed by orcs, captain of the guard, voice of reason/morality over authority, romantically involved with royalty, etc.

[Pettytyrant101]

Conan springs to mind too.

[Eldorion]

I'm taking classes right now that are obsessed with feminine energy and equality, one of them saying that LOTR fails in terms of a feminist rating because every female in the story is talking about a man or does things because of men, which is mainly true, but then again it was written during a time when women were still being characterized as objects for men. Tolkien gives the women in his stories a beauty and strength that wasn't fathomed when he was growing up. Quite frankly, I wish he'd made a female character for the Hobbit, but it's a kids book; nobody (should) be worrying about how gender-equal it is!

Are you referring to the Bechdel Test?  It's a useful point to bring up when you're trying to raise awareness about gender roles in fiction, but it's never worked (and I don't think was ever intended to be) a test that you apply to a work to see how feminist/pro-gender equality it is.  There are plenty of non-feminist works of fiction that pass the Bechdel Test.

That's not to imply that Tolkien's writings are a model of gender equality or anything, though I think he's sometimes given more shit than he deserves (not necessarily by anyone on here).

[Forest Shepherd]

I believe someone mentioned fan fiction? The underlined seems so familiar.. Oh yes! because it appears in EVERY SINGLE FAN FICTION PIECE EVER!!

What cliched tripe.

That was the part that jumped out the most at me too, Forest.  Besides fanfic, I used to do a bit of Tolkien role-playing on another forum, and I'm pretty sure I've seen literally everything about Tauriel done before, and better, by RPers.  Parents killed by orcs, captain of the guard, voice of reason/morality over authority, romantically involved with royalty, etc.

Yes good points. If nothing else, I have at least seen it in many many MANY Biographies in the MMO LotRO. Apparently this is the universal fall-back when a fantasy writer wishes to give his character's depth. (I would have used "Their" instead of "his", speaking of gender issues, but it just didn't feel right being nit-picky towards my own personal word-choices.)

Parents killed at a young age, raised by a race other than your own (this is Middle-Earth races I'm speaking of), violence-based vendetta against orcs or whatever, based upon an unrealistic sense of revenge: it's really worn out.