Re: what's the meaning of the name Smaug?

by halfwise Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:21 pm

I use the term as in when the word August is said, there is a clear R sound contained within it.

From your statement that you've never heard "august" pronounced without an r, and from the many examples of British speech I've heard in which "august" (and law) is never pronounced with an r, I conclude you only think you are pronouncing an r.

You may think you are pronouncing it, but any American will tell you that what you call an 'r' in this position is nothing like the 'r' that you pronounce in 'trust'. We pronounce the r the same way in 'trust' and 'tart'. We would say that you are pronouncing them as 'trust' and 'taht'. So you are not saying 'Argust' so much as 'Ahgust', which is the same as 'August'.

by Carcharoth Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:26 pm

Eldorion wrote:Where does this "R" sound in August come from? There's nothing even remotely similar to an "R" in the word.

Edit: could say the same thing about the word Smaug. I guess some people see "AU" and mentally add an "R"?

Maybe you have a strong American accent and so pronounce the word differently to me. Only thing I can think of. Maybe if I say I pronounce it like 'awg' instead of 'owg' it will take away the R that you Americans seem to hate so much Razz

by halfwise Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:31 pm

We don't hate the R, we use it when printed. You Brits use it only when you must (at the beginnings of words) but hide it away like a inconvenient stepson when at the ends of words. This is what allows you to think you are pronouncing R when actually you are not: it's the same as not pronouncing the R when you should. In both cases you don't pronounce it at all but think you are!

Some communities in the US (Boston, Brooklyn, the South) retain the British pronunciation, which I think is actually imported from a different time. I shall have to check up on this.

But there are hundreds of millions of Americans who are nodding their heads in agreement when I say you Brits often do not pronounce the r but think you do. I suggest you check with a linguist who will put you straight: you have two extremely different pronunciations of R, and the one we have been discussing is damn near non-existent when compared with the R as heard (excuse me 'heahd') in the words 'real' or 'trust'. You've simply been acclimated to not hear it as an entirely different sound.

by Carcharoth Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:32 pm

halfwise wrote:
I use the term as in when the word August is said, there is a clear R sound contained within it.

From your statement that you've never heard "august" pronounced without an r, and from the many examples of British speech I've heard in which "august" (and law) is never pronounced with an r, I conclude you only think you are pronouncing an r.

You may think you are pronouncing it, but any American will tell you that what you call an 'r' in this position is nothing like the 'r' that you pronounce in 'trust'. We pronounce the r the same way in 'trust' and 'tart'. We would say that you are pronouncing them as 'trust' and 'taht'. So you are not saying 'Argust' so much as 'Ahgust', which is the same as 'August'.

Not sure why an American has more authority on the English language than an Englishman Razz

There is a r sound in august. It is pronounced Org-ust where I live. And on all tv or films I've ever seen Mad

Pretty certain I'm not imagining it.

by Radaghast Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:34 pm

Carcharoth wrote:
Eldorion wrote:Where does this "R" sound in August come from? There's nothing even remotely similar to an "R" in the word.

Edit: could say the same thing about the word Smaug. I guess some people see "AU" and mentally add an "R"?

Maybe you have a strong American accent and so pronounce the word differently to me. Only thing I can think of. Maybe if I say I pronounce it like 'awg' instead of 'owg' it will take away the R that you Americans seem to hate so much

How do you pronounce 'ball'?

by Radaghast Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:36 pm

Carcharoth wrote:
halfwise wrote:
I use the term as in when the word August is said, there is a clear R sound contained within it.

From your statement that you've never heard "august" pronounced without an r, and from the many examples of British speech I've heard in which "august" (and law) is never pronounced with an r, I conclude you only think you are pronouncing an r.

You may think you are pronouncing it, but any American will tell you that what you call an 'r' in this position is nothing like the 'r' that you pronounce in 'trust'. We pronounce the r the same way in 'trust' and 'tart'. We would say that you are pronouncing them as 'trust' and 'taht'. So you are not saying 'Argust' so much as 'Ahgust', which is the same as 'August'.

Not sure why an American has more authority on the English language than an Englishman

There is a r sound in august. It is pronounced Org-ust where I live. And on all tv or films I've ever seen :xPretty certain I'm not imagining it.

This sounds like it's being pronounced by an Englishman and I'm still not hearing an 'r'.

by Carcharoth Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:36 pm

All with a B in front.

by Carcharoth Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:38 pm

Radaghast wrote:
Carcharoth wrote:
Not sure why an American has more authority on the English language than an Englishman

There is a r sound in august. It is pronounced Org-ust where I live. And on all tv or films I've ever seen :xPretty certain I'm not imagining it.
This sounds like it's being pronounced by an Englishman and I'm still not hearing an 'r'.

You don't hear an 'or' at the start of the word? Not even when trying to hear it when I've mentioned it? Shocked

Seems clear as day to me.

by Eldorion Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:41 pm

Nope, no R sound there. Sorry Carcharoth, but I'm leaning towards Halfy's perspective (even if he is a filthy American Wink

).

by halfwise Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:41 pm

See my post on the last page. You have been acclimated to hear two extremely different R sounds as the same. We americans hear the difference clear as a bell, and don't call your weaker pronunciation an 'r' at all. It's the sound of a Brit dropping the r sound. We consider it the leading characteristic of the british accent, that in certain positions you drop the 'r' entirely.

EDIT: or in britspeak: "in ceHtain positions you dRop the 'r' entiHely." And now we know many of you don't even realize it! Razz

by Carcharoth Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:45 pm

I don't hear them as the same at all. There is a clear difference between the r in trust and the r being heard in august. But they are both clearly r sounding. If you say the word Orgust, does it really sound nothing like the word in that video? ;D Do me a flavour.

by halfwise Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:46 pm

Nothing at all the same. We have a single r sound, you have two.

by halfwise Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:47 pm

It is good to know you hear the difference, though.

by Carcharoth Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:51 pm

Amazes me that you can not put even a vague link between the two words. How would you pronounce the word 'orgust' to make it unrecognisable from august?

Organisation and augmentation for example are very similar sounding.

by halfwise Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:57 pm

Not when we say it. Can Raddy dig up an american pronunciation of both?

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:58 pm

3 pages and not a single smaugasbord joke? Mad

August would be Aw-gust in Scots. But where there are r sounds we tend to roll them.

The au sound in Smaug I would pronounce same as I would the first syllable in the Scots auch- which is a word of frustration and is sounds similar to english 'awe'.

by Radaghast Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:59 pm

That's just the standard pronunciation of August that happens to be spoken by an Englishman, as far as I know Shrugging

If there's a slight difference, it sounds almost like an 'oh' sound in the video.

by halfwise Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:01 pm

http://www.forvo.com/word/organization/

has British and American examples.

http://www.forvo.com/search/augmentation/

only one example, since Brits and Yanks have the same pronunciation (no R to be mutilated).

by Carcharoth Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:10 pm

Well, regardless of language differences, the way they pronounce Smaug in the film is not how I read it in the book. Not saying it is wrong. I just think sounds better the other way.

by Elthir Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:17 pm

Tolkien notes au as in English 'loud' or Elvish 'Sauron' .

His real name is Trâgu anyway.

by Eldorion Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:20 pm

Radaghast wrote:That's just the standard pronunciation of August that happens to be spoken by an Englishman, as far as I know

If there's a slight difference, it sounds almost like an 'oh' sound in the video.

I agree with the second part. It did sound a little like Ohgust.

Elthir wrote:Tolkien notes au as in English 'loud' or Elvish 'Sauron' .

His real name is Trâgu anyway.

So you're saying PJ was right? Shocked

Smog (and Saw-ron) 4lyfe.

by Pettytyrant101 Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:23 pm

If its the 'ou' on loud then its more a ow sound, so not Smog but Smowg.

by Elthir Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:23 pm

So you're saying PJ was right?

Smog (and Saw-ron) 4lyfe.

I'm not sure what you mean here Eldo.

by Radaghast Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:23 pm

Elthir wrote:Tolkien notes au as in English 'loud' or Elvish 'Sauron' .

His real name is Trâgu anyway.

True, but 'Smaug' may be an exception (kind of like how 'Smeagol' seems an exception to the 'ea' as 'ay' rule), based on the origin of the word and comments made by our resident Norwegian posters.

Never knew Trâgu was his real name. Interesting.

by Ringdrotten Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:24 pm

The English language - what a mess Very Happy