Sauron in the Hobbit

We know PJ plans to show something of the WC chasing Sauron out of Dol Guldur. My question is will Sauorn be in the film? In LotR PJ got round the incorporal nature of Sauron by manifesting him as a literal huge fiery eyeball on top of Barad-dur. He can't do that here because noone is supposed to know it is Sauron. But as TH is set long after Sauron has lost his physical form what will PJ do? Have a big eyeball indoors? That seems really silly. Not have him in at all and promote someone else, maybe the Witch-King, to the role of on-screen villian, or the even the Mouth? Or will he give him a body and have an onscreen Necromancer?
Thoughts?

When I read the Hobbit and was unaware of the fact that the Necromancer was Sauron, I had my images of how he'd look like. But did Tolkien himself, at the time he wrote TH, know that the Necromancer and Sauron were the same? Or didn't Sauron even exist in Tolkien's mind at that time? If he didn't, Tolkien must have meant the Necromancer to have a physical form, even if he later decided that he couldn't have had one (because he was Sauron). Perhaps the answer to that question isn't so important anyway, given the fact that he ended up being Sauron and couldn't really have had a body after all. But still, I would have liked to see the Necromancer like I imagined him, a dark Wizard of sorts (even if that wouldn't make much sense)

I, like Ringdrotten, also didn't know that the Necromancer was Sauron when I first read The Hobbit, and to be honest, as he doesn't play a massive role in the book, forgot about him. I probably assumed he was a black dark thing- but definitely with a body. Sauron is powerful- it's imaginable that he could decide to take some sort of physical form again, just not a fair one. I would gave no objection to seeing him in a physical form, as long as the physical form is dark, scary, shadowy, but yet still obvious that he, at the this point of time, is weak! I'm sure he took a physical shape when he became the Necromancer!

"He is not yet able to take physical form"- Saruman in FotR (PJ version)
So if they do give him a body it will contradict what was in hs own film.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:"He is not yet able to take physical form"- Saruman in FotR (PJ version)
So if they do give him a body it will contradict what was in hs own film.

Just because in the film Saurman says that, doesn't mean he can't embody a human form earlier on in the third age, but not a strong body, a week one. That quote could also be wrote that he couldn't take a physical form that Sauron felt he deserved- he didn't want to take a body like he had when he was the Necromancer, he wanted to be strong and all powerful!

It doesn't make sense (and I'm sticking here to the confines of PJ's films). Sauorn gets defeated and lost his corporeal form. Saruman tells Gandlaf in LotR he is not quite strong enough yet to get a new one. And you are saying he got one and lost it again somewhere inbetween? If PJ does that I will not be happy. Sauron is quite clearly noncorporeal in the books and he never regains a body.

But did Tolkien himself, at the time he wrote TH, know that the Necromancer and Sauron were the same? Or didn't Sauron even exist in Tolkien's mind at that time?

Sauron (or Thû being one of his earlier names) existed before The Hobbit, though if we go back far enough we would be talking about the precursor of Sauron. It's hard to say exactly when Tolkien considered the story of The Hobbit to be truly part of Middle-earth, so to speak (this has been a subject of debate), but in any case Thû the Necromancer appears in the Lay of Leithian for instance -- the passages referring to him written in about 1928 according to John Rateliff.


The film aside, in the books Sauron had a body in the Third Age: self-incarnation was possible without physical possession of the One, as long as the One still existed.

Speaking in terms of the books, I have to agree with Elthir. While the question is not fully resolved within the text of TLotR one way or another (though I don't think that any of the passages mentioning the Eye imply that it has physical existence), there are several places in other of Tolkien's wrings that quite clearly demonstrate that Sauron had a body during the events of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.

The Silmarillion, Akallabeth wrote:But Sauron was not for mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the seas

Letter 200 wrote:It was because of this preoccupation with the Children of God that the spirits so often took the form and likeness of the Children, especially after their appearance. It was thus that Sauron appeared in this shape. It is mythologically supposed that this shape was 'real', that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms.

Letter 246 wrote:Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic.

Speaking in terms of the movies, however, and to the extent that The Hobbit films are clearly intended to form a coherent whole with PJ's LOTR films, Sauron clearly should not have a body during the events of The Hobbit. However, this does not necessarily mean that he has to be in the form of an eye (snarky photoshopping aside). I think that PJ should leave the nature of Sauron's form (or lack thereof) vague for two reasons. First, showing it clearly on screen runs the risk of being absurd.

Second, because I think Sauron is a more effective villain when he is a distant menace, as in the books. Sauron has plenty of minions who can command his troops and establish an on-screen presence, including of course the Nazgul. I would personally go with a Nazgul because I very much liked their portrayal in the LOTR films and I think they're more intimidating than Orcs, but it could be either, or even an Easterling man. Any of those options gives more possibilities for character development while not running (as) roughshod over the books.

Then again, we're talking about the White Council in The Hobbit. Why am I even trying?

Keep in mind also that PJ was going to have a legit Sauron fighting Aragorn, but then had the sense to use a troll instead. he'll probably use the excuse that Sauron can shapeshift and whatnot, or describe him as being like one of the Wraiths. I have a feeling PJ's going to make him like the Witch King. In fact,he may very well replace Sauron with the Witch King!

Tinuviel wrote:Keep in mind also that PJ was going to have a legit Sauron fighting Aragorn, but then had the sense to use a troll instead. he'll probably use the excuse that Sauron can shapeshift and whatnot, or describe him as being like one of the Wraiths. I have a feeling PJ's going to make him like the Witch King. In fact,he may very well replace Sauron with the Witch King!

Agreed with Tin. PJ is all for continuity (which is quite funny when you think about it) Wraith like and a shadowed face is the way to go, and obviously someone was amazingly awesome and great which Sauron so obviously is, can get inside a human body at his pleasure!

Sauron hopping about bodies! Taking mortal form and dropping it again in favour of being a big eye. AAARGGGGHH! This is why the whole WC Necromancer thing is a bad idea. He is ruining TH, somethings are better left to the imagination. I'm sorry folks but nearly every suggestion on here so far as done nothing but crank up the warning levels on my crabbit meter!!!Explosion imminent.

Worse than the English or PJ kill rage?

I'm too afraid to look. I put the meter in a cupboard which is now violently rattling about the place with a slowly escalating humm. I just can't see how PJ will pull this off without either ruining it or making it silly.

There is also Gollum's description of Sauron's hand or fingers in The Lord of the Rings, and as Eldorion already noted, there's a variety of comments from JRRT -- which include the explanations (from his letters): that Sauron was always de-bodied when vanquished, or that it took Sauron longer to rebuild his form after the Last Alliance than it had after the fall of Númenor -- and that it was impossible for Sauron to rebuild after the destruction of the Ring (destruction, not loss).


To letter 246 I'll just add a bit more context to help show that Tolkien is very arguably talking about the Third Age:

'In the contest with the Palantír Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature but not gigantic.'

Regarding my earlier comments about Thu and The Hobbit, I'll add that the actual date for the beginning of the story of The Hobbit seems a bit confused. From certain sources Tolkien himself appears to point to the summer of 1930, but other statements could indicate an earlier date -- although it's not quite clear if the story, if earlier than 1930, was still only in oral form, and was fully 'The Hobbit' if so.


In any case Thu the Necromancer, as he appears in the Lay I noted above, would be at least 'concurrent enough' with the forming of the story of The Hobbit, or if we believe the author himself at points, somewhat earlier.

Just adding my pedantic blathering to my earlier rambling!

Elthir wrote:Just adding my pedantic blathering to my earlier rambling!

Even if this is your idea of blathering and rambling, I would certainly like to see more of it! I really need to sit down and read through The History of The Hobbit some now that I have it.

I still haven't (yet) read all of it myself Eldorion, but chunks rather.

I don't agree with everything JDR has to say, but 'everything' might be difficult considering how much he packs into these two volumes. Incidentally, Rateliff did not get to incorporate Tolkien's Words, Phrases and Passages before his history of The Hobbit was published, so we will have to keep that in mind when he (for example) takes a stab at the meaning of Thranduil.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:"He is not yet able to take physical form"- Saruman in FotR (PJ version)
So if they do give him a body it will contradict what was in hs own film.

Not necessarily. Since the White Council and their driving the Necromancer out of Mirkwood will be included in TH, Saruman could be referring to a fight of some sort in Dol Guldur which resulted in Sauron losing his ability to take physical form (an ability he doesn't have in the books at all at this point, but one he could have had in the films - it's Peter Jackson we're talking about here, anything's possible ). Then Saruman's line would mean something like this: "He cannot yet take physical form after what happened in Mirkwood". I'll stop now, don't want to be responsible for Petty's heart attack

"a fight of some sort in Dol Guldur which resulted in Sauron losing his ability to take physical form"- Ringrotten

You're killing me here Ringdrotten. Please people stop this I can't take much more.

I'm sorry I'm just trying to justify an embodied Necromancer! (not that that will save your crabbit meter )

If he has a physical Sauron they can have him fighting. I just can't see how that will work. Gandalf fighting Saruman was embarrasing enough. Are we going to see Galadriel chucking fire balls about? Radagsat turning into weird beats to fight him? Whats Elrond going to do Matrix him? No, no, no, and NO again!!!!! Buckie! By Illuvatar I need more buckie!!!

All right, I agree - it would be stupid Let's hope he goes for the Witch King option

Still largely the same problem. As soon as you turn the single line "WC drives Necromancer from Mirkwood" into a series of scenes you are in trouble. How do they drive him out? What are their powers? Whose even on the Council? (Will they include Cirdan on it, I think he's supposed to be but not seen the name in casting). How does Galadriel use her ring to keep Sauron at bay- the implcation in FotR is that its a battle of wills, how do you do that on screen? At somepoint the WC is going to have to 'put forth its power'- how is that to manifest itself? Badly is I suspect the answer.

They could form a circle, hold hands, call upon Manwe, and hum, lightning could light up the sky, thunder rumble, trees bend, stars swirl, rocks crack and tumble, walls shiver, dark towers fall and Legolas fly past on that skateboard thing. Brilliant!

Not funny Odo!

We knew that Galadriel "threw down" the walls of Dol Guldur after LOTR, so I expect to see some epic kung fu action sequences. At the beginning Galadriel will rip her dress to allow for freer movement and then take a running head of start of several miles, launch into the air, and deliver a flying roundhouse kick to the walls of Dol Guldur, which will be covered in flayed human skin, because Tolkien's architecture wasn't scary enough. After that, an army of Elven martial arts experts, led by Haldir and his brothers (who totally didn't have enough to do in the books) shall engage in mighty battle with the Necromancer's Orcs, who practice a twisted and evil form of kung fu. There will be no Easterlings present because moral ambiguity is for wusses. At the end the Witch-king will be drop-kicked all the way to Mordor.

Also, I hear they have Michael Bay on deck to direct the scene where Dol Guldur is blown up as Sauron's spirit races away in a racecar.