Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Eldorion Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:34 pm
I hear what you're saying about worrying for the future of the show, Blue, and you make some good points. So far D&D have stuck closer to the book than fan speculators thought they might, but they are clearly taking greater liberties now. I agree that many of the changes have made the story less interesting IMO, though with the Tysha thing they changed that from the very beginning (with Shae outright mocking the idea that the story went down as told in the books; a girl who was just almost raped wouldn't invite a man into her bed, as she says, and she has a point). But the way they handled Shae's death did bother me a little because it stripped out so many layers of grey from Tyrion's character and kept him a more conventional hero type.
I honestly don't remember much of Jaime's Riverlands arc from AFFC, though his scenes in ADWD were pretty good at reading the summary on Westeros.org's wiki yeah it seems pretty good. I agree with you about the Dorne subplot though. The unique culture of Dorne and their use of equal primogeniture is what made them so interesting, and Arianne's Myrcella plot was a neat wild card. If they have a "crown Myrcella" plot in the show (which I'm not sure they will), it will be considerably weaker for not having a female instigator. Unless the Sand Snakes are behind it, but like you said, they're so undeveloped in the book that it's hard to say what they might be like in the show if they're made more prominent.
On a related note, they might just cut the "crown Myrcella" plot altogether because (so far) it doesn't really seem to be leading anywhere directly. But since they've also cut the "court Daenerys" plot and probably also Faegon, that leaves the question of what the hell will happen in Dorne to justify giving it any screentime moving forward. So I wonder if they will introduce some entirely new scheme, or if they've just been playing their cards extremely close to their chest and the speculation is off-base. I do really hope that they include Dorne's Targaryen loyalties though, given how big a deal Elia's death was last season.
I honestly don't remember much of Jaime's Riverlands arc from AFFC, though his scenes in ADWD were pretty good at reading the summary on Westeros.org's wiki yeah it seems pretty good. I agree with you about the Dorne subplot though. The unique culture of Dorne and their use of equal primogeniture is what made them so interesting, and Arianne's Myrcella plot was a neat wild card. If they have a "crown Myrcella" plot in the show (which I'm not sure they will), it will be considerably weaker for not having a female instigator. Unless the Sand Snakes are behind it, but like you said, they're so undeveloped in the book that it's hard to say what they might be like in the show if they're made more prominent.
On a related note, they might just cut the "crown Myrcella" plot altogether because (so far) it doesn't really seem to be leading anywhere directly. But since they've also cut the "court Daenerys" plot and probably also Faegon, that leaves the question of what the hell will happen in Dorne to justify giving it any screentime moving forward. So I wonder if they will introduce some entirely new scheme, or if they've just been playing their cards extremely close to their chest and the speculation is off-base. I do really hope that they include Dorne's Targaryen loyalties though, given how big a deal Elia's death was last season.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Bluebottle Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:08 pm
Yeah, some of the things that cropped up over season 4 have made me really hesitatant. I really want to like this show, but there were several moments in season 4 it was hard not to cringe at. The pointless asides to Crasters Keep (not Hardhome, obviously) and the Dreadfort are just the most noticable ones. They complain about lack of screentime to adapt certain things, while giving us pointless filler like that. It just seems odd.
And I find myself thinking, that was the best half of the best book in the series, and you made it into one of the weaker seasons of the tv show. Particularily considering the material they had to work with. Adapting aFfCs and aDwDs is a much less thanklful task.
I'm in no way saying all their changes have been bad. Some of the slight skewing of Georges plot I've actually quite enjoyed. Like making Ned a great swordsman. He wasn't in the books, but that wasn't a change that hurt his character or storyline, it was just different. And Georges writing can in some parts become a bit prosaic, so I would say there are room for improvements, particularily when adapting the story to a different medium.
Other things though seem to reflect their view on the story a little to much. Skewing Georges work to fit their preferences. Like the moronic comment from Dan Weiss saying Tywin wasn't evil, he was "lawful neutral." Like.. just no. And the degree to which they seem to like Cersei. They've literally taken away her bad qualities, and given her worst actions to other people. And, yeah, you mentioned their heroisizing of Tyrion yourself. And they gave Theon an entierly invented torture storyline in season 2 chronicling his capture were the books were silent, that became both overlong and a bit gratuitous to me, while marginalizing other characters. And so on.
Honestly, at times it feels like they are just going through the motions with the parts they don't particularily care for. Perhaps that's a bit unfair, but I will hold there's a definit weighing of story and screentime towards their favourite characters and storylines. Perhaps it's best put as, they limit storylines they don't care for in a way that looses the deapth that is one of the great parts of the books.
It's just a series of stuff like that that has me feeling a bit hesitant about their future adaptation of the books. While I would like to give them the benefit of the doubt, and while I really want this show to be good, it's hard not to question their judgment on some of the choices they've made.
Not that I want to come across as too critical. Particularily not of something I haven't seen yet. It just has me a bit worried, that's all.
And I find myself thinking, that was the best half of the best book in the series, and you made it into one of the weaker seasons of the tv show. Particularily considering the material they had to work with. Adapting aFfCs and aDwDs is a much less thanklful task.
I'm in no way saying all their changes have been bad. Some of the slight skewing of Georges plot I've actually quite enjoyed. Like making Ned a great swordsman. He wasn't in the books, but that wasn't a change that hurt his character or storyline, it was just different. And Georges writing can in some parts become a bit prosaic, so I would say there are room for improvements, particularily when adapting the story to a different medium.
Other things though seem to reflect their view on the story a little to much. Skewing Georges work to fit their preferences. Like the moronic comment from Dan Weiss saying Tywin wasn't evil, he was "lawful neutral." Like.. just no. And the degree to which they seem to like Cersei. They've literally taken away her bad qualities, and given her worst actions to other people. And, yeah, you mentioned their heroisizing of Tyrion yourself. And they gave Theon an entierly invented torture storyline in season 2 chronicling his capture were the books were silent, that became both overlong and a bit gratuitous to me, while marginalizing other characters. And so on.
Honestly, at times it feels like they are just going through the motions with the parts they don't particularily care for. Perhaps that's a bit unfair, but I will hold there's a definit weighing of story and screentime towards their favourite characters and storylines. Perhaps it's best put as, they limit storylines they don't care for in a way that looses the deapth that is one of the great parts of the books.
It's just a series of stuff like that that has me feeling a bit hesitant about their future adaptation of the books. While I would like to give them the benefit of the doubt, and while I really want this show to be good, it's hard not to question their judgment on some of the choices they've made.
Not that I want to come across as too critical. Particularily not of something I haven't seen yet. It just has me a bit worried, that's all.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Bluebottle Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:12 pm
Eldorion wrote:Bluebottle wrote:Um.. Do I want to click that?
It's a James Bond clip.
God, that might perhaps be the most cringeworthy line ever.
Though if you start thinking like that, I guess everything sounds wrong.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Bluebottle Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:13 am
Eldorion wrote:I agree with you about the Dorne subplot though. The unique culture of Dorne and their use of equal primogeniture is what made them so interesting, and Arianne's Myrcella plot was a neat wild card. If they have a "crown Myrcella" plot in the show (which I'm not sure they will), it will be considerably weaker for not having a female instigator. Unless the Sand Snakes are behind it, but like you said, they're so undeveloped in the book that it's hard to say what they might be like in the show if they're made more prominent.
It seems her role will be swallowed up Ellaria, the Sandsnakes and Trystaine to different degrees. Though I'm not sure they can adequately fill her role in the story. Either singlehandedly, or combined.
I'm probably a little biased here. The Dorne storyline is close to my heart, and something I really enjoyed in the book. But the reason I enjoyed it was Arianne, and her relationship with Dorran. Now what is Dorne without that, even without going into the whole equal primogeniture thing.
And it' a shame for Dorrans character too. Because he won't have Arianne to play up against, and it was in those interactions his characters really shine too. They'll probably give him some interaction with Trystaine instead, but what grievances could Trystaine have with Dorran? Something to do with Myrcella perhaps. I struggle to see it having the same emmotional depth and impact. And that's despite me thinking they made a great choice in casting Alexander Siddig.
And it will effect his crowning moment. Dorrans speach.
- Spoiler:
- Her father's face darkened. "This mistrust does you no honor, Arianne. Quentyn should be the one conspiring against me. I sent him away when he was just a child, too young to understand the needs of Dorne. Anders Yronwood has been more a father to him than I have, yet your brother remains faithful and obedient."
"Why not? You favor him and always have. He looks like you, he thinks like you, and you mean to give him Dorne, don't trouble to deny it. I read your letter." The words still burned as bright as fire in her memory. "'One day you will sit where I sit and rule all Dorne,' you wrote him. Tell me, Father, when did you decide to disinherit me? Was it the day that Quentyn was born, or the day that I was born? What did I ever do to make you hate me so?" To her fury, there were tears in her eyes.
"I never hated you." Prince Doran's voice was parchment-thin, and full of grief. "Arianne, you do not understand."
"Do you deny you wrote those words?"
"No. That was when Quentyn first went to Yronwood. I did intend for him to follow me, yes. I had other plans for you."
"Oh, yes," she said scornfully, "such plans. Gyles Rosby. Blind Ben Beesbury. Greybeard Grandison. They were your plans."
She gave him no chance to reply. "I know it is my duty to provide an heir for Dorne, I have never been forgetful of that. I would have wed, and gladly, but the matches that you brought to me were insults. With every one you spit on me. If you ever felt any love for me at all, why offer me to Walder Frey?"
"Because I knew that you would spurn him. I had to be seen to try to find a consort for you once you'd reached a certain age, else it would have raised suspicions, but I dared not bring you any man you might accept. You were promised, Arianne."
Promised? Arianne stared at him incredulously. "What are you saying? Is this another lie? You never said . . ."
"The pact was sealed in secret. I meant to tell you when you were old enough . . . when you came of age, I thought, but . . ."
"I am three-and-twenty, for seven years a woman grown."
"I know. If I kept you ignorant too long, it was only to protect you. Arianne, your nature . . . to you, a secret was only a choice tale to whisper to Garin and Tyene in your bed of a night. Garin gossips as only the orphans can, and Tyene keeps nothing from Obara and the Lady Nym. And if they knew . . . Obara is too fond of wine, and Nym is too close to the Fowler twins. And who might the Fowler twins confide in? I could not take the risk."
She was lost, confounded. Promised. I was promised. "Who is it? Who have I been betrothed to, all these years?"
"It makes no matter. He is dead."
That left her more baffled than ever. "The old ones are so frail. Was it a broken hip, a chill, the gout?"
"It was a pot of molten gold. We princes make our careful plans and the gods smash them all awry." Prince Doran made a weary gesture with a chafed red hand. "Dorne will be yours. You have my word on that, if my word still has any meaning for you. Your brother Quentyn has a harder road to walk."
"What road?" Arianne regarded him suspiciously. "What are you holding back? Seven save me, but I am sick of secrets. Tell me the rest, Father . . . or else name Quentyn your heir and send for Hotah and his axe, and let me die beside my cousins."
"Do you truly believe I would harm my brother's children?" Her father grimaced. "Obara, Nym, and Tyene lack for nothing but their freedom, and Ellaria and her daughters are happily ensconced at the Water Gardens. Dorea stalks about knocking oranges off the trees with her morningstar, and Elia and Obella have become the terror of the pools." He sighed. "It has not been so long since you were playing in those pools. You used to ride the shoulders of an older girl . . . a tall girl with wispy yellow hair . . ."
"Jeyne Fowler, or her sister Jennelyn." It had been years since Arianne had thought of that. "Oh, and Frynne, her father was a smith. Her hair was brown. Garin was my favorite, though. When I rode Garin no one could defeat us, not even Nym and that green-haired Tyroshi girl."
"That green-haired girl was the Archon's daughter. I was to have sent you to Tyrosh in her place. You would have served the Archon as a cupbearer and met with your betrothed in secret, but your mother threatened to harm herself if I stole another of her children, and I . . . I could not do that to her."
His tale grows ever stranger. "Is that where Quentyn's gone? To Tyrosh, to court the Archon's green-haired daughter?"
Her father plucked up a cyvasse piece. "I must know how you learned that Quentyn was abroad. Your brother went with Cletus Yronwood, Maester Kedry, and three of Lord Yronwood's best young knights on a long and perilous voyage, with an uncertain welcome at its end. He has gone to bring us back our heart's desire."
She narrowed her eyes. "What is our heart's desire?"
"Vengeance." His voice was soft, as if he were afraid that someone might be listening. "Justice." Prince Doran pressed the onyx dragon into her palm with his swollen, gouty fingers, and whispered, "Fire and blood."
I think what riles me is they have a great storyline from George, with proper emotional impact some great characters and character interaction and they choose to drop it for what? And I'm far from sure they can write something better.
Eldorion wrote:On a related note, they might just cut the "crown Myrcella" plot altogether because (so far) it doesn't really seem to be leading anywhere directly. But since they've also cut the "court Daenerys" plot and probably also Faegon, that leaves the question of what the hell will happen in Dorne to justify giving it any screentime moving forward. So I wonder if they will introduce some entirely new scheme, or if they've just been playing their cards extremely close to their chest and the speculation is off-base. I do really hope that they include Dorne's Targaryen loyalties though, given how big a deal Elia's death was last season.
The only thing I can think of that's been mentioned, that would give Dorne any sort of relevance to the wider story and that I feel could make any sense is if they make Trystaine Aegon, and then let him have a younger sister called Arianne or something. But that still leaves us without Ariannes storyarc for this season. And Dorne without much to do of substance.
As such, I do think the Queenmaker plot will be included in some way. Though with other characters taking Ariannes role. Ellaria is apparently to be given a more confrontational role than in the books, where she was a voice for peace, so she might very well play an instrumental role in it.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Bluebottle Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:15 am
Another bts look at Daznak's pit. 
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Norc Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:48 pm
Yohooo i am up to date with the series now 
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by halfwise Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:35 pm
Bluebottle wrote:... And they gave Theon an entierly invented torture storyline in season 2 chronicling his capture where the books were silent, that became both overlong and a bit gratuitous to me, while marginalizing other characters. And so on.
I believe the Theon neutering/sausage scene was actually scripted by GRRM; just one of the examples where I think his writing for the show is ham-handed.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Mrs Figg Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:43 pm
If they can curb his tendency to kill everyone that would be nice. Its gone past a joke.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Bluebottle Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:23 pm
A fan made poster for season 5, but a pretty cool one. The official one should be allong in a couple of days apparently.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Bluebottle Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:49 pm
Game of Thrones season 4 bloopers.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Bluebottle Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:54 pm
This is a bit older, but still..
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Eldorion Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:09 pm
Those were good.
I am curious to see the official poster. We're getting so close.
I am curious to see the official poster. We're getting so close.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Bluebottle Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:39 pm
Littlefinger from the first one:
He needs to learn how to swing a sword, how to *stumbles on step* *bleeeep*
He needs to learn how to swing a sword, how to *stumbles on step* *bleeeep*
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Bluebottle Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:56 pm
It might be good to brush up on this part. 
After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night’s King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Eldorion Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:49 pm
That's a lot better visual companion than the illustration of the Night's King on the Westeros.org wiki.
It was actually the hubbub over the (alleged) Night's King in GOT that got me to start watching the show again. I had watched the first several episodes of S1 when they aired but fallen behind for RL reasons and wasn't hugely enthralled when I tried to catch up later. But I told myself I'd jump back in for S5 when they started adapting Feast/Dance, but the news that they were already past the books on at least sub-subplot made me decide to rejoin the party early. I'm really glad I did; (re)watching the whole series last summer really changed my perspective on it.
It was actually the hubbub over the (alleged) Night's King in GOT that got me to start watching the show again. I had watched the first several episodes of S1 when they aired but fallen behind for RL reasons and wasn't hugely enthralled when I tried to catch up later. But I told myself I'd jump back in for S5 when they started adapting Feast/Dance, but the news that they were already past the books on at least sub-subplot made me decide to rejoin the party early. I'm really glad I did; (re)watching the whole series last summer really changed my perspective on it.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by halfwise Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:12 pm
Where is this description of the Night's King from? I don't remember it.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by halfwise Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:17 pm
Found it, not in the books, apparently something the show added. I'd call this a good addition.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Bluebottle Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:01 pm
Yeah, it's a good piece of writing. It's based on Bran remeniscing about the Night's King while at the Nightfort in aSoSs.
As the sun began to set the shadows of the towers lengthened and the wind blew harder, sending gusts of dry dead leaves rattling through the yards. The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan’s stories, the tale of Night’s King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night’s Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. “And that was the fault in him,” she would add, “for all men must know fear.” A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.
He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night’s King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night’s King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.
“Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.”
No, Bran thought, but he walked in this castle, where we’ll sleep tonight. He did not like that notion very much at all. Night’s King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule. And it’s getting dark.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Bluebottle Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:03 pm
Eldorion wrote:It was actually the hubbub over the (alleged) Night's King in GOT that got me to start watching the show again. I had watched the first several episodes of S1 when they aired but fallen behind for RL reasons and wasn't hugely enthralled when I tried to catch up later. But I told myself I'd jump back in for S5 when they started adapting Feast/Dance, but the news that they were already past the books on at least sub-subplot made me decide to rejoin the party early. I'm really glad I did; (re)watching the whole series last summer really changed my perspective on it.
Well, I'm very glad you did Eldo.
I'll certainly appreciate your perspective on season 5. I wonder, how did you find season 2 and 3 on watching them? I know season 1 was a bit, here's the first book as a tv series. While they gave themselves a good deal more freedom after that. I guess I have a bit of an odd relationship with the show too, having seen the first three series unspoiled and then reading all the books before season 4. I do kind of wonder at my slightly more hesitant view of the show now in that context. There's probably some stuff in seson 2 and 3 I would have remarked upon if I had read the books first that I didn't. That said, there were some odd changes being made in season 4. All of which makes me very interested in seeing season 5.
The Night's King inclusion in the tv show is certainly one of those very enticing potential spoilers. To what degree is it a spoiler though? It's hard to know.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Bluebottle Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:20 pm
The last two of these sight teaser things.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Eldorion Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:16 am
Whoever filmed the Youtube version of that Brienne video needs their fingers chopped off (unless they take the black).
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY
by Bluebottle Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:41 am
They're both horrible in quality. I like the Mance one though.
"Pride? Fuck my pride."
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Similar topics» Game of Thrones [2]
» Game of Thrones [2]
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» The Eye - my own game
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» Game of Thrones [2]
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» The Eye - my own game
» The 'Meaning in the Music' Game
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