So who do you be? Hobbit, dwarf, wizard or elven?

Old Forum wrote:Gandalfs Beard

Exactly! And if we accept Tolkien's post-modern "conceit" that he was simply the translator of the Red Book as it came to him, then it is entirely plausible that operating from this same suspension of disbelief one could suggest that Tolkien only knew about the Wizards that were written of in the "surviving texts" he "discovered." Under that assumption, there were no doubt other ancient texts that either didn't survive or have yet to be "discovered." One could easily posit that lesser known Istari had appeared in Hobbit or Dwarf form--especially as the halflings generally avoided "big folk" and Dwarves were often distrustful of the other "races." Who better but Istari cloaked in the guises of these other "races" to help keep them on the right path of forging peaceful alliances with each other?

I'm not against looking at the merely possible, but in my opinion there are levels. I think Eldorion has rightly posted that there is no evidence of Hobbit or Dwarf-wizards, and it seems to me that the door needed to open up this possibility is quite a notably wide one. Yes, we are looking at (within the conceit) only a fragment of an imagined hoard of ancient texts and stories, and even in reality Tolkien 'intended' to finish and publish much more about his world, and this conceit can be raised in certain contexts I suppose...

... but in my opinion the idea here is not merely additional information but one that runs counter to the texts that we actually have. The ancient texts note that the number of the Wizards is five (although all the 'ancient texts' that deal with the Istari might provide a bit of a 'canon debate' technically), and they came in the form of old Men. To my mind, to posit more wizards* and that even Tolkien as translator didn't know there were more, means that the former information is 'false' for some reason, instead of merely adding something the reader did not formerly know (which itself can be questionable of course).

Externally I don't think Tolkien ever imagined the idea: 'They appear always as old men and sages,...' (footnote to letter 131) 'Thus they appeared as 'old' sage figures.' (letter 156)

So in my opinion, if this postulate was ice I wouldn't skate on it


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*there were seemingly more wizards according to one text published in Unfinished Tales (where it is said that the order of the number is unknown), but subsequent accounts appear to confirm five, as noted in The Lord of the Rings as well. If canon debate is your thing, along with more than five wizards, there is at least one text to raise here -- but Tolkien-published text is hard to trump in my opinion.

Lance,
Of the Firstborn Elves, some never left Middle-earth, but of those that did go to Valinor, you would have had to had been in Feanor's bunch to have returned to Middle Earth. Which mean's you would have been a rebel and put under the Ban of the Valar like Galadriel. The ban was eventually lifted to a point, and you could have gone into the West had you survived up to that point.

Feanor and Galadriel were not the original elves. Were there not something like 36 pairs or something like that?

It was those that originally woke that I was referring to as to whether we know that any in middle earth are still alive. You would assume that some in Valinor arebut not sure about ME.

Just curious but what happened to elves that were under the ban who died? Did they just keep reincarnating in ME and keep going? Was their spirit allowed to return to the West or did they have to go to some sort of Halls of Mandos deal until the ban was lifted?

Lancebloke wrote:Feanor and Galadriel were not the original elves. Were there not something like 36 pairs or something like that?

It was those that originally woke that I was referring to as to whether we know that any in middle earth are still alive. You would assume that some in Valinor arebut not sure about ME.

I never heard/read the 36 pairs number, but I would suspect many more are indicated in context.

Feanor led them out of Valinor, but he led a whole people, young and old, so it still goes, if you wanted to be an original elve and have made the trip to Valinor and back again, you would have been a follower of Feanor. There might have been an exception somewhere along the line of the special consideration shown a few famous characters, but I can not think of one.

Legolas is descended from ones who stayed in Middle Earth. But I do not know if his father Thranduil was an original elve.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Just curious but what happened to elves that were under the ban who died? Did they just keep reincarnating in ME and keep going? Was their spirit allowed to return to the West or did they have to go to some sort of Halls of Mandos deal until the ban was lifted?

There isn't a whole lot in the published main books on reincarnated elves. Glorfindal comes to mind as a First Born that probably died in the First age and after a time in Valinor was sent back in the Third age (Fight at the Ford of Bruin)

Feanor I believe specifically is mentioned as having to cool his heels in the House of Mandos for a very long time before he would ever be released. I don't know about his followers, but would guess they drew lesser sentences, but still had to do time in the pokey.

According to an Elvish fairy-tale, or child's tale mixed with counting lore, the Unbegotten Elves numbered 144 (72 pairs of spouses). Not surprisingly in my opinion, given the type of text we are dealing with here, the fate of the original (Unbegotten) Elves is unknown as far as I recall.


Glorfindel and the rebel Noldor were banned from physically returning to Aman but their spirits could pass to Mandos. Glorfindel was restored to physical life however (Tolkien explains why, given the ban), and returned to Middle-earth in the Second Age (first Tolkien imagined that he returned in the Third Age with Gandalf, but the second version revises this idea).

Yeah but what about all the elves who died in battle in the Last Alliance say? Where did they go when their bodies died? (pesumably quite a lot of them were under the ban still)

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Yeah but what about all the elves who died in battle in the Last Alliance say? Where did they go when their bodies died? (pesumably quite a lot of them were under the ban still)

To Mandos and the Halls of Waiting (although a given spirit could refuse this, if desired), to await restoration of the exact same body.

Generally speaking

Thanks Elthir- and a question with a short, clear concise answer- in Tolkien- who would have thought it!!

Well I could have made the answer longer

Also remember that the ban was lifted after the overthrow of Morgoth, except for Galadriel.

Ah was never sure who was still Banned after that- just her? All alone? Harsh that Eru.

If I recall correctly, the reason Galadriel was the only one still banned was that all the other leaders of the rebellion had died in generally horrible ways during the course of their war with Morgoth.

Eldorion wrote:If I recall correctly, the reason Galadriel was the only one still banned was that all the other leaders of the rebellion had died in generally horrible ways during the course of their war with Morgoth.

Yes Eldorion, Galadriel was '... the last survivor of the princes and queens who had led the revolting Noldor to exile in Middle-earth' JRRT, The Road Goes Ever On

Thanks for the confirmation, Elthir.

Elthir wrote:According to an Elvish fairy-tale, or child's tale mixed with counting lore, the Unbegotten Elves numbered 144 (72 pairs of spouses). Not surprisingly in my opinion, given the type of text we are dealing with here, the fate of the original (Unbegotten) Elves is unknown as far as I recall.

Possible I guess, that is one gross elves.

But I am surprised. The story has them waken and in time monsters come and eat some of them. The Hunting dude Valar then comes and leads them to the ocean and there were 3 main families. I always imagined a larger host, but don't remember any number or even indicative adjective given so I may have to re-calibrate my imagination here.

As far as the fate of the original elves some estimation is possible I think.

That Hang around the fort family that remained in Valinor once they got there would mostly still be alive I suspect.

The Boaty family would have lost a significant number in the Kinslaying. At least 50% I would think or more.

The Noldor would have been practically wiped out, between the Kinslaying, crossing of the Ice, and endless wars they were involved in in Middle Earth.

When I say 144 Unbegotten Elves I mean only those who awoke (and were not born), not to their descendants who lived about the Waters of Awakening however (if we can take the 72 pairs from this child's tale to be true, anyway).


According to the Annals (going on memory here) we have around 500-ish Sun Years (or around 50-ish Valian Years if I recall correctly, also using 10 instead of 9.582 for easier math), before the Eldar even begin the Great Journey, although not all Elves took up this journey in any case. I don't know how many Elves were around at the period of the Separation, but JRRT speaks to clan proportions anyway...

'According to the legend, preserved in almost identical form among both the Elves of Aman and the Sindar, the Three Clans were in the beginning derived from the three Elf-fathers: Imin, Tata, and Enel (sc. One, Two, Three), and those whom each chose to join his following. So they had at first simply the names Minyar 'Firsts', Tatyar 'Seconds', and Nelyar 'Thirds'. These numbered, out of the original 144 Elves that first awoke, 14, 56, and 74; and these proportions were approximately maintained until the Separation.'

JRRT, Quendi And Eldar

Which publication does this come from? I don't remember reading this numerology anywhere.

I don't think I'd describe Galadriel as one of the leaders of the rebellion. She seems to have gone along just because she was restless for a place she could call her own. But her history is among the most variable in Tolkien's writing, so hard to say for sure.

halfwise wrote:Which publication does this come from? I don't remember reading this numerology anywhere.

The essay is Quendi And Eldar, from The War of the Jewels (from The History of Middle-Earth series)

I don't think I'd describe Galadriel as one of the leaders of the rebellion.

OK but Tolkien published this in The Road Goes Ever On; and below is the version Christopher Tolkien (in my opinion rightly) chose for the 1977 Silmarillion, instead of Galadriel being removed from the Rebellion.

[Galadriel was] '... the last survivor of the princes and queens who had led the revolting Noldor to exile in Middle-earth'

JRRT, The Road Goes Ever On

[this goes along with a statement from Tolkien in letter 297, dated 1967: 'The Exiles were allowed to return - save for a few chief actors in the rebellion of whom at the time of the L. R. only Galadriel remained.']


'The fire of their hearts was young, and led by Fingolfin and his sons, and by Finrod and Galadriel, they dared to pass into the bitterest North; and finding no other way they endured at last the terror of the Helcaraxe and the cruel hills of ice. Few of the deeds of the Noldor thereafter surpassed that desperate crossing in hardihood or woe.'

Silmarillion

This last quote was part of the early 1950s Silmarillion conception, with RGEO published in the 1960s.


Petty, Tolkien's 'at the time of the L. R.' in his letter seems to allow for some 'chief actors' to have possibly survived into the Second Age, but in any case by Frodo's time Galadriel alone remained banned.

I would also weight RGEO greater than the letter, where it at least seems (according to the fuller passage) to be only Galadriel being especially banned after the overthrow of Morgoth, although I suppose Galadriel would be the focus there in any event.

Well one things for sure anyway. This Elthir person is a legit Loremaster.

As far as those who would choose elves, I can see some of the attraction, but consider elves sanctimonious buttholes myself. Men are not much more then talking apes to Elves.

Turembar - thats a bit harsh.

Your own name sake was considered one of the greatest captains of an Elven Kingdom. His father was also held in high esteem!

Some are a bit stuck upn there own posterior, but then so are some men and dwarves and hobbits.

Lancebloke wrote:Turembar - thats a bit harsh.

Your own name sake was considered one of the greatest captains of an Elven Kingdom. His father was also held in high esteem!

Some are a bit stuck upn there own posterior, but then so are some men and dwarves and hobbits.

Yes, your right & I didn't mean to offend. I am just angry with the elves in general. I don't mind really that the elves are different or keep to themselves, it is that I feel like they abandoned us.

One to one men (or women) and elves can relate quite well, but the groups at large do not mix well. I tend to place more of the blame for this on the elves, as they are in effect more powerful, wiser, etc.

Don't worry, no offence taken (I don't generally take offence so don't worry).

To be fair, if I were an elf I am not sure how in to man affairs I would get. I think losing an elf who was a friend occasionally is one thing, but you would be losing man friends (and I mean completely plutonic) all the time. That would just be a bit crap!

I don't know what I would go for.... I quite like the idea of being immortal but I also get bored easily.

Lancebloke wrote:Don't worry, no offence taken (I don't generally take offence so don't worry).

To be fair, if I were an elf I am not sure how in to man affairs I would get. I think losing an elf who was a friend occasionally is one thing, but you would be losing man friends (and I mean completely plutonic) all the time. That would just be a bit crap!

I don't know what I would go for.... I quite like the idea of being immortal but I also get bored easily.

I saw something like that frequently at military bases. The locals would at first befriend military folks, but after 2-3 years the military folks leave and others replace them, and the cycle is endless. So after a while the locals tend to stop making friends with the military, for a similiar reason to what you mentioned above, which was to avoid going thru the getting to know someone phase, only to lose them.

To get the kind of mobility and variety you mention you might have to go up to Maiar. How were your grades is High School?

They could have been better! But as I mentioned, I get bored easily and so didn't quite work to my potential.

I think I would quite like to be feared by all the baddies too... so Orome or Tulkas would come to mind. They all soiled themselves when those 2 were about.