The Riddle-Game

Hollin?

finally.

your turn.   

Ah bugger!

Answer, as Petty correctly put it out, being Hollin, I wanted to get some explanations for this!   

Mrs Figg wrote:ok moar Tolkien stuff

whispers in the air
Rumours, I guess.

rumours of the fair
About Elves

tales of kingdoms lost
withered with the frost
Hollin being the kingdom here lost after Sauron (the recent "Annatar") destroyed it. The Kingdom was lost through the treachery of Sauron and his willingness to capture all the rings of power. The three rings being stolen away speaks to the fact that the elves and dwarves of Eregion and Khazad-dum must have fought back against his forces. Frost does not really wither, and the kingdom was lost to destruction, and did not "wither" as, say, one could argue Gondor had begun to do at the end of the Third Age.

all is dead and gone
memories dry as bone
Well Eregion is deserted entirely, but the memory of it still lives on among the elves. Galadriel and Celeborn ruled there for a while after all. Sarumon, as the computer game LotR Online suggests, could certainly have kept the memory of this place as the home of so much ring-lore in his mind.

once silver bells
rang over the fells
well there is no direct reference to silver bells that I can find, but they could have had them. And I suppose there were some fells there, I don't believe mention is made of them in LotR, but the land is in the shadow of the Misty Mountains after all. Foothills tend to accompany mountains.

once all was green
fit for Elven queen
Hollin is still largely green for all anyone knows. It has not undergone a great physical transformation of landscape. Green here must be not be literal. And yes, fit for Galadriel I suppose.

alas they wandered far
under moon and star
Who wandered? The survivors of the suggested Sack of Eregion? They did not "wander" so much as flee to Lothlorien, Imladris and Lindon.

If one is going to write a riddle, the answer of which is Eregion, and yet make absolutely no reference whatsoever in the least tiny little bit to:
Holly trees,
Rings of power,
Sauron's treachery,
proximity to Moria,
the passage of the Fellowship,
the rivers of the Sirannon and the Glanduin,
the famous road the Elven Way that facilitated the close friendship and productive trade between elves and dwarves in this area,
or even the darn Elven-Dwarven friendship that existed there itself,
the rulers of said place (ok, brief mention of Galadriel the "Elven Queen" unless I am missing something big here. Still, Celebrimbor is more well known as the ruler of Hollin),
or the Crebain that famously bothered the Fellowship as they traveled through there.

If one writes a riddle about Eregion and makes extremely little, or no, reference to the things listed above, than I am sure as heck not going to be much bothered when other people have about as much success working out the bloody answer as a crew of sailors trying to walk a straight line the first night back on shore-leave.
I mean!   

We're just lucky Petty has a foot for that kind of thing, thanks to his buckie experience.

Here's how I saw it when it clicked for me-

whispers in the air
rumours of the fair

A poetic reference to the sentiment espoused by Legolas in Hollin when he says the stones and land still remember them.

tales of kingdoms lost
withered with the frost
all is dead and gone
memories dry as bone

Hollin is long abandoned and forsaken and not really remembered any more save by a few historical specialists.
withered by the frost I take as an allusion to Annatar's betrayal.

once silver bells
rang over the fells
once all was green
fit for Elven queen

Reference to the elves who lived there and the land itself, which is indeed green in the book.

alas they wandered far
under moon and star

Alluding to the elves abandoning Hollin, the use of 'alas' implies it was not by choice.

I think Forest to have include the rings of power, Sauron and holly trees would have made it too obvious for a riddle.

Or maybe it is just buckie thinking!   

If I had been sure it was an elven place rather than just fit for an elven place, then there's only a few places that were but are not at the time of LotR inhabited by them. One other specific hint may have clinched it, but like Petty the feeling that rumors of them still hung about would have been good enough to lead me there.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Here's how I saw it when it clicked for me-
whispers in the air
rumours of the fair
A poetic reference to the sentiment espoused by Legolas in Hollin when he says the stones and land still remember them.

tales of kingdoms lost
withered with the frost
all is dead and gone
memories dry as bone
Hollin is long abandoned and forsaken and not really remembered any more save by a few historical specialists.
withered by the frost I take as an allusion to Annatar's betrayal.


once silver bells
rang over the fells
once all was green
fit for Elven queen
Reference to the elves who lived there and the land itself, which is indeed green in the book.

alas they wandered far
under moon and star
Alluding to the elves abandoning Hollin, the use of 'alas' implies it was not by choice.

I think Forest to have include the rings of power, Sauron and holly trees would have made it too obvious for a riddle.

Or maybe it is just buckie thinking!   

"Obvious"?!!
Too obvious my foot!

I grant you, that is an excellent allusion to LotR on Figg's part, including reference to Legolas' line. (Although the "rumour" (actually the memory) of the elves is heard in the voices of the stones, not in the air.)

However, don't even try and say that Annatar could possibly mean "the frost." I will not accept that in the least. The poetical similarity is not there, nor is the literary connection. It's not even "withered by the frost." It's "withered with the frost." Frost does not wither. It melts. It evaporates. It does not wither, and neither did Eregion. It was destroyed, decimated, sacked, less "abandoned" and more "fled-from."

And saying "once all was green" directly implies that it is no longer green. That it has changed.
Certainly it has changed, as Legolas points out, but it is still fair and green.
" '...I think we will rest here, [said Gandalf] not only today but tonight as well. There is a wholesome air about Hollin. Much evil must befall a country before it wholly forgets the Elves, if once they dwelt there.'
'That is true,' said Legolas. 'But the Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan folk, and the trees and the grass do not now remember them. Only I hear the stones lament them: deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us; but they are gone. They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago.' "
Hollin does sound very hilly near to the mountains, now that I read the book passages.

But the elves did not abandon Eregion in a wandering way, they were driven forth. They fled from Sauron.
I am not saying that mention need be made of all the things that I listed, simply that it is frustrating for Eregion, or Hollin, to be the answer when the riddle itself doesn't really mention Eregion/Hollin things. It's like having a riddle about shoes that tells the story of a goat with cold hooves. It just doesn't line up for me.

And yet Petty got it, and I think I would have if I had just accepted the obvious allusion to elves.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Here's how I saw it when it clicked for me-

whispers in the air
rumours of the fair

A poetic reference to the sentiment espoused by Legolas in Hollin when he says the stones and land still remember them.

tales of kingdoms lost
withered with the frost
all is dead and gone
memories dry as bone

Hollin is long abandoned and forsaken and not really remembered any more save by a few historical specialists.
withered by the frost I take as an allusion to Annatar's betrayal.

once silver bells
rang over the fells
once all was green
fit for Elven queen

Reference to the elves who lived there and the land itself, which is indeed green in the book.

alas they wandered far
under moon and star

Alluding to the elves abandoning Hollin, the use of 'alas' implies it was not by choice.

I think Forest to have include the rings of power, Sauron and holly trees would have made it too obvious for a riddle.

Or maybe it is just buckie thinking!   

   thats how I thought too! its always stuck in my mind the sense of loss Legolas seemed to feel in that place, as if only the ancient stones remembered the passing of the Elves. Hollin sounds like a lonely place.

Forest Shepherd wrote:

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Here's how I saw it when it clicked for me-
whispers in the air
rumours of the fair
A poetic reference to the sentiment espoused by Legolas in Hollin when he says the stones and land still remember them.

tales of kingdoms lost
withered with the frost
all is dead and gone
memories dry as bone
Hollin is long abandoned and forsaken and not really remembered any more save by a few historical specialists.
withered by the frost I take as an allusion to Annatar's betrayal.


once silver bells
rang over the fells
once all was green
fit for Elven queen
Reference to the elves who lived there and the land itself, which is indeed green in the book.

alas they wandered far
under moon and star
Alluding to the elves abandoning Hollin, the use of 'alas' implies it was not by choice.

I think Forest to have include the rings of power, Sauron and holly trees would have made it too obvious for a riddle.

Or maybe it is just buckie thinking!   

"Obvious"?!!
Too obvious my foot!

I grant you, that is an excellent allusion to LotR on Figg's part, including reference to Legolas' line. (Although the "rumour" (actually the memory) of the elves is heard in the voices of the stones, not in the air.)

However, don't even try and say that Annatar could possibly mean "the frost." I will not accept that in the least. The poetical similarity is not there, nor is the literary connection. It's not even "withered by the frost." It's "withered with the frost." Frost does not wither. It melts. It evaporates. It does not wither, and neither did Eregion. It was destroyed, decimated, sacked, less "abandoned" and more "fled-from."

And saying "once all was green" directly implies that it is no longer green. That it has changed.
Certainly it has changed, as Legolas points out, but it is still fair and green.
" '...I think we will rest here, [said Gandalf] not only today but tonight as well. There is a wholesome air about Hollin. Much evil must befall a country before it wholly forgets the Elves, if once they dwelt there.'
'That is true,' said Legolas. 'But the Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan folk, and the trees and the grass do not now remember them. Only I hear the stones lament them: deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us; but they are gone. They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago.' "
Hollin does sound very hilly near to the mountains, now that I read the book passages.

But the elves did not abandon Eregion in a wandering way, they were driven forth. They fled from Sauron.
I am not saying that mention need be made of all the things that I listed, simply that it is frustrating for Eregion, or Hollin, to be the answer when the riddle itself doesn't really mention Eregion/Hollin things. It's like having a riddle about shoes that tells the story of a goat with cold hooves. It just doesn't line up for me.

I made the riddle in about 2 minutes.    I guess its more atmospheric than accurate.

It's unfair of me to pick it apart so, Mrs. Figg, sorry about that.
I like the idea of riddles that lead one on through wordplay and allegory. My standard, unversed as my culture is in the telling of riddles, is the riddle game between Bilbo and Gollum, in which the riddles are primarily allegorical thingums. I can't actually make riddles like that, but I try. Even when others do, I usually don't get them very easily.
I think the atmosphere you mention in your riddle is the heart of the matter. It suggests the feel of the abandonment of Hollin without actually touching on the details involved.

Your riddle did include wordplay and such, but the poetical license taken was enough to stir up my prideful annoyance and lead me to unleash a wave of crabby dissection.

This has very little to do with riddle-telling, I suppose I should rein it in in future.

no worries   
I do tend to go for airy fairy atmosphere and feel rather than actual facts,    I wanted it to rhyme so a lot of it was made up on the (grey) hoof.

I dont think Petty would approve of any crabbit being reined in, let it flow.   

Indeed not, better out than in as they say.   

Riddles can come in many forms, and there are many legitimate ways to invoke the answer in the hearers ear.

Once I thought Hollin I knew I was almost certainly right because it felt right for Hollin, not because there was any single clue that I had a 'eureka' moment on.

You probably meant to say "evoke" there Petty. Invoking is a rather different thing, unless taken literally here. Which would be rather cool in my opinion, albeit a bit strange.

Anyway, I invoke the right of absence! Et je vous présente mon énigme!


I am a master of fate,
and luck.
Faces have I for every day,
save one.
In truth I add up to little,
but add me right and I'll give you thousands.


(I don't much like this riddle--what with is being so clunky--but I couldn't come up with anything better this late!)

is this some tricksy maths riddle?   

Money?

No it's not mathematical. At least not beyond basic counting up to 6 or so.
And no, money is not the answer.

is it vegtable, mineral or animal?

I didn't realize we had shifted to Twenty Questions...  

{{{I already gave a hint in my earlier response}}}

zeros, naughts or nothing

Nope. And that's three guesses!   
Although I see where you're going with zeroes in relation to the "add me up right and... thousands" lines.
The first two lines are more important though.
Hint: it's a physical object.

stars

  

Nope. And for the sake of guessing in this manner, you might as well just edit the post above and keep going there. I'll edit here as necessary.  
Of course that wouldn't show up as a new post, so disregard that!

Forest Shepherd wrote:I am a master of fate,
and luck.
Faces have I for every day,
save one.
In truth I add up to little,
but add me right and I'll give you thousands.

Re-posting as the guesses have dwindled.

The moon?