Ange the Man

Just out of curiosity, why is this in the Big Bad Serious Forum? Do you chaps really take your sport teams this seriously?

'It's estimated that from 1996 to 2003, eight deaths were directly linked to matches between Celtic and Rangers, along with thousands of assaults and arrests.

In a rivalry which has hugely significant meaning in not just Scotland, but Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland also, there has even been heavy violence in these two states as well, as a direct result of the outcome of Old Firm games in Glasgow.

In fact, for a considerable amount of supporters the football on the pitch is quite irrelevant, as it merely provides a platform for religious and political sectarianism.'

{{This also fails to mention the sharp increases in domestic violence reports that follow matches. Orwell has no idea what he has so innocently stepped into. }}

It seems I must shock you, Petty. I know a hell of a lot about Celtic and Rangers. While most Europeans gaze at their navels, (a lot of Celtics and Rangers fans, I have duscovered, are incredibly ignorant people) the rest of the world looks outside its own bubbles and takes interest in what goes on around the world. But its the football, that’s what I’m taking an interest in. The troubles of Scotland are just noise to me. There are troubles everywhere. Sad, but true. 

Now, what’s this thing about Malmo? Rumour has it Rangers are still in the CL due to a fluke goal at about the 90th minute. Is this stunning news true?

{{ Why anyone would willingly join in the Old Firm madness is beyond me! Least I've the excuse I was born into it.

As for Malmo, first least its a team thats well known and pronouncable and we are still in the competion. 2-1 away from home in the Chamions League is perfectly respectabe score, you expect to win home games and we will expect to win at Ibrox when they come here.
Do hope Celtic enjoy their B Europa league, afterall if it wasnt for Rangers putting in the hard work to get the Scottish co-efficient up they wouldnt be there at all- so they have us to thank for them getting any euro football at all this season (not that I expect them to give any thanks, must be hard to talk when your mouths stuffed with all those chips that keep falling off your shoulders!) }}

I’m only here for next year and the assault on Europe. Ange has only been at Celtic for a month or so, so me being an Oztralian and realistic, and knowing he must get a bunch of Scotshobbits learning how to kick a coconut properly, i’m willing to give Ange one more week to turn Celtic into something vaguely respectable.

I am not so good at maths but if Dundee United at the end of the game are 1 goal, and Rangers at the end of the game are 0 goals, dues that mean...ooh I think I know it means... If Celtic win against Dundee, the Old Corp are on level points...

Celtic 6 Dundee 0. 

I chanced to see this strange chart called the SPL ladder. With a list of names that don’t seem to be in alphabetical order, but numerical order?

{{ I heard the Dundee players beleived all the Celtic players had the lurgy and so wouldn't go anywhere near them. Would explain Dundee' performance. }}

Let's just say they are very polite in Dundee.

It was a grand victory, Rangers Corp 4 and some Highlanders from a village, 2.

{{Only bits that counts is getting more goals than the other side. Defence need ssome patching though but new signings seem to be addressing that. 29th of this month is day to watch!}}

The first test. Ange has had but two months to rebuild a totally sunken ship. Should be enough time.

I know why Celtic is still not great yet, the wreck has been much reported, but what are Rangers doing? Snoozing?

{{ Think the word you are looking for is 'winning' Still very good of Celtic to be acting as a support struture, holding the top half of the league up by sitting in the middle of the table
Especially funny as we were down our main keeper, defenders, captain and manager with covid isolation, and was still a 2nd half stroll in the park against your mob You cant even beat our 'b' team. Our manager outclassed and outmanouvered yours without having to get out his armchair }}

Are you quite sure it was just your ‘B’ team? Celtic is a wreck, from what I know. Rangers has been incredibly underwhelming so far this season. Is the SPL as shite as some folk keep telling me? Luckily, another transfer window or two you’ll have st least one team that won’t embarrass the country. 

Socceroos 3-0. 

Scotshobbits 0-2. 

Is it a sign?

{{ Thing about winning Championships, the mark of a team who will often go on to win the league, is that even when not playing at their best they still get the job done. On a different day Celtic would have taken one or two of those chances and it'd been a different game. But they didn't, and Rangers ground out a victory in the second half by gelling and working well for just long enough and taking their chance when it came. And thats the difference. Thats what wins you leagues. Anyone can win when its firing on all cylinders and every part of the team is clicking, but still walking away with three points when theres a less good spell and its not at that point, thats the key.

And the thing your Ozzie mate Ange should know about Celtic fans, when your winning they are the most loyal, supportive, devouted fans as you will find, they will elevate you to Legend status. But if you arent winning, they will turn on you like a pack of rabid dogs.
They can't bear, with a deep seething loathing to see Rangers beat them or to have the gloating and bragging rights go to the blue side of the city (and same in reverse of course) and they expect Celtic to win and they don't accept lose for too long. And Celtic managers in the past who havent managed to win enough have tended not to be Celtic managers for long.
Or if they are, like Lennon their last one, the pack will tear them to pieces and drive them out. }}

I’ve noticed that, and was already aware. Frankly, I support Ange. Many fans already give me the shites. Are you saying Rangers fans stick by their team through thick and thin...even if they lose!

{{ I'd say there is somewhat of a difference in atitude and approach between the two sets of fans. And of course it all comes back to religion and politics. Broadly speaking Rangers associate with Britain and the United Kingdom, fly the union jack, sing God Save the Queen, support and even host miltary events at Ibrox to raise money for various miltary charities (this ties into support for the army in Northern Ireland during the Troubles, so you can see how the other side see it as provocative for Rangers to host these events and so publicly tie themselves to the army) and into all this comes Protestantism and its dominance in Scotland since King Billy of Orange, Rangers are the club of such folk traditionaly. And with a strong masonic presence also tied to Protestantism in the West of Scotland they were often a lot of succesful folk, all leading to Rangers fans being more middle class in many ways than Celtics catholic and generally less well off fan base who did not have the advantages being in the majority group holds.
The upshot is Rangers fans are often hard C to soft c conservatve in their views.
This is reflected in how the club presents itself. From the miltary stuff to Rangers managers never wearing tracksuits in the dugout. They wear a suit, specially tailored team suit. When the players are going to games on the team bus or to do any press, they wear suits. Not by choice, as a rule of the club.

So when Rangers got sent to the bottom of the leagues and had to start from scratch and come back to the top flight there were long periods of not great football and not great players playing the football. And whilst managers did change, each one got a good run, and when it became time for them to go the fans cheered them out for serving the club in its time of need, like McCoist, who failed in the task and was time to go, but he stood up when few others were and took it on and he got the respct for that, even in defeat.
Even at the fans most demanding and vocal for change, and the club at its lowest point in its entire history, there was nothing like the banners Celtic fans put up calling for the heads and deaths of the manager Neil Lennon and the board, nothing like the managing directors house being set on fire. Its just not the Rangers way.

What is the same however is the bitter hatred of the thought of Celtic winning and getting the bragging rights. That utter intolerance to even the idea of it is equal on both sides and just as nasty and violent in the expressing of it on both sides. And anything can get dragged into it a weaponry so long as there is a clear side to pick thats in opposition. So Israel/Palestine? Rangers will support democracy, rule of law and the milarty so Israel, Cetic the dowtnrodden Palestinians fighting agianst the brutality of a system. Scottish Independcne? Rangrs Queen and Rule Bitiannia, against, Celtic, take power back for the people, independence. More thrown into the mix, layered on top of the old exisitng dividing lines of religion and past history back to King Billy of Orange in the 1600's.}}

You know, you as such a Lefty, in some senses, you could support - and reject! - both clubs. Mind you, it’s the game, and my Ange, that interests me. The troubles you have are interesting, of course, mostly in a way that makes me sad about human beings (everywhere). The two horse town. The angst. It does not appeal to me at all. So I’m focusing on Ange and the Celtic players I’m getting to know. Let the cheeky banter continue! But I’m side stepping the hate. Nominally, I’m a Prod myself. Nominally, because the only god I believe in is Illuvatar.

{{ My support for any Scottish football team is something I have struggled with a long time. You see growing up being protestant, being a rangers fan and being scottish were essentilly all one and the same thing, part of my core identity. Anti-catholic songs were commmonly heard, tirades against catholics, priests and the pope came thick and fast, part of the air you breathed. As a kid catholics werent allowed in my house. The Troubles were alive thing back then still, there was real visceral hatred tied up with which side you were on. Bombings featured regularly on television. And when some atrocity occured from the IRA, when women and children were murdered it was seemingly easy as a child to see who were the bad guys, backed up by all the outpouring of anger and hatred from all the adults around you. As a kid you just accept all this at face value, its what all the adults around you do. Hating catholics and all they stand for, including their football team was just normal. How life is.
My first real issue was when I attended my first Old Firm match, it wasnt that the hate and anger was so palpable coming from both sets of fans, it was how I got swept up in it and the mob mentality that goes with it, finding myself hurling abuse and belting out anti-catholic songs with the best of them in a frenzied flow of emotion and hate that was barely concious, and lucid moments watching myself behave this terrible way.
On the way home on the supporters bus I had much to ponder and did not feel much like singing the songs on the way back, my reticence to do so did not go unnoticed by my fellow supporters however and I was quickly questioned and interrograted as to why I was not singing, not taking part in the catholic bashing. Failure to comply with the mob led almost immediately to suspicion from it that I wasnt properly one of them. And if I wasnt one of them then I was potentially part of the problem. And that was a second warning this maybe was not for me.

And I've essentially struggled with the same dilemna to this day. When I watch an old firm match now those old feelings are still there, in moments of excitement or anxiety the old prejudices are still bubbling away, in built since childhood. Its not just sporting rivarly, that deep down hatred and desire for THEM to lose and be humilated is still very real.
In my old age Ive come to the conclusion some things are so ingrained you cannot surgically remove them from your personality any longer, all you can do is acknowledge them within yourself and deny them through concious effort.
I can say these days its just about the football, the game, the sporting event for me now, and that is true intellectually. But emotionally, in the moment, its not the whole truth. It never will be. }}

Yeah, I understand. I find the whole thing stomach churning. Theoden: ‘So much hate!” 

A real benefit for me my parents never indoctrinated me with anything, other than good manners and an idea that no one is better than anyone else, and it’s clear to me my parents thought the Commies and Fascists (translate that for me now to ideologues of any stripe) want control, not democracy, or fir me to have freedoms that they don’t want me to have. And religion is the root of a lot of trouble. And I find superstition, and people guided by the voicings of imaginary friends in the sky, scary. Our society is relatively peaceful. The majority have their thoughts but generally live and let live. We don’t tend to have generations old social hatreds.  The second or third generations of immigrants generally relax a bit about age old enmities in Australia. Still might argue, but not too many knife fights over it. The Lucky Country still in many ways. Though the ideologues still chip away. And hate is always hiding under the covers. Humans being like that.

I’m getting behind the Ceitic players, but I gotta say, a huge complement of trad Ceitic fans are a wee bit entitled and ignorant about sport and seem blissfully unaware what it takes and what is involved in playing team sport at an elite level. I grind my teeth at sooky fans. A team full of new players to the club won 3-0 and do  many fans are sooking!? Are Rangers fans as bad? Give me strength.

{{ Well as a Rangers fan I cant really comment too much, especially as one of the main things Rangers fans call Celtic fans is 'entitled'. So I'd be careful using that particular term around your new celtic fan friends.

However just quickly and somewhat randomly went to two fan sites, one for each club. Both teams won today without either putting in their best performance, Ive taken the last page at this time in the main game thread and picked typical it seems quotes.
Rangers fans first (we won 2-1 away to St Johnstone, who aren't a great team but they are well organised and hard to break down)

'I must admit. I don't like these emotional roller coaster games. We have enough in our armoury to put these games away early. Chasing games shouldn't be our style.'

'Great result. Those are the kind of victories you need to dig out if you want to win the league'

'Superb goal from Tav, 3 points and top of the league. I've had worse days.'

'First half instantly forgettable but Perth not an easy place for any team to go to these days.'

'Not the prettiest, but a great show of character and another three points'

and the Celtic fans after a 3-0 home win against minnows Ross County-

'We wont win 6-0 every home game but that was well below par today. Really missed the bright spark that is Koyago. Took a fluke to get us on our way but could easily have been 1-1 but for a great save. Bottom line shows how much we rely on Koyago, much like Larsson, when missing its a bit of a slog.'

'First half was very pedestrian. That midfield trio doesn’t work.
Second half we just converted the chances.
Some positives, some things to be concerned about.'

'Happy with the win but the last two games have shown us that we play a hell of a lot slower attacking wise without Kyogo through the middle.
Our attacking play was more or less the same as when we played against the Hun, no fast ball from midfield and no forward runners.'

'First half was dire and best forgotten. Second half wasn't much better. A lethargic performance with a heap of bad performances. CCV is a unit and was decent. Great save by Hart at 1-0.'

'Working yesterday so missed the game , that was basically a whole new team we had out and win 3-0 against a team that done us twice last year so cut the guys a bit of slack ffs .'


There does seem somewhat of a difference in response, considering both teams won, both got the three points, and both werent at their best. If thats down to Celtic fans feeling more entitled or not I leave open!}}

Thats an interesting flyover. I have not wandered onto Rangers sites much, but I’ve done a little, and overall I’ve found positivity a little more consistent. Some Celtic fans? Entitled? I think so. I must say, and it may be similar in a certain way, but ‘chip on the shoulder’ comes to mind. Perhaps Rangers are not at their best, and for a champion team, I have been a bit underwhelmed with the  games I even seen. But it’s a new season and too early to concern oneself with those things no matter who one supports,I reckon. And those reports by Rangers fans you cite seem fair and reasonable. We want our teams to be too perfect, and can only really claim that when it wins a trophy, not without blushing. Champions! Well, then we must be perfect! Cetic was a wreck from what I have gleaned early on from fans. And honestly, with so many new players, the word rebuild is more than apt. Two players playing their first game, another his second, a few injuries, a few players only in this season. In Australia, if my team in a rebuild beat anyone 3-0 I’d be feeling very pleased. Ross County seem to have parked the bus. Takes a well drilled team to beat that system, and by my reckoning Celtic are a wreck not long floating again with much work to do. 3-0 is pretty good progress by any sensible measure. 

I also don’t like the patronising attitude I am seeing from quite a few Ceitic fans toward the other eight teams. Rangers are the hated, the rest sneered at. I know the player salary budgets are much bigger at the Old Firm. More money to spend, better players, two horse race. That’s pretty much how it always works. But I wish the haves would have a little more class about it. I dutifully want Celtic to win every game, and I certainly bear the players no grudges, but I reckon I’ll follow Patrick Thistle once  Ange moves on. 

I’m lucky as an Aussie Rules supporter, because we have a salaried league with no bloated salaries. Our highest paid players get about a million a season. Chicken feed. But winning a league is hard, hard, hard, and when you win one, you definitely know it’s not bought but earned. I follow a team who won three out of four. This year we did not even make the finals. I feel blessed and will be living on memories potentially for another 37 years, like we did before we won the first of our last three championships. In that 37 years, probably ten different teams won championships. Could be more. It’s wonderful for fans who love to win a trophy. The two teams that have made the grand final this season, one has only ever won two trophies, though as recently as season 2017. The other has won about 15 (guessing) but the last was 57 years ago! Our game has been going since well before 1900. So all but one team has won the competition. Only one team has never won a Grand Final, but it only joined the comp in the late 90’s (I think?) when they eventually win one, I’ll be cheering for them - unless it’s against my team, of course. Sorry, I’m wandering. 

The two horse SPL and all those bloated player salaries (Europe generally)really has never done it for me. Our A-League may not be a great league by Euro standards, but it’s an honest one, and no team can expect to win the league every year or any year. Salary caps mean the management staff have to get a lot things right playing on a level playing field. I think it’s far better for all fans. You may not like losing, who does?, but winning it all becomes all the more exciting, and always meritorious, never (largely) bought. 

The only real and even competition between managers in the SPL is between Gerrard and Ange. Both great operators. Hopefully both do Scotland proud in the Europa League! Let the best manager and team win the league!  Looking forward to Europa and I do hope the Old Firm go okay there. I tend to follow the less fancied. The money spent by the big teams in the big leagues is obscene to be honest. 

But some fans, oh boy, it’s going to be a long, long season! (Maybe if Ceitic come Second, and Rangers Third, and Patrick Thistle first, I might be quite satisfied. Though it will be extra tough this year for Patrick Thistle, as I don’t believe they’re even in the Premier League).

{{ I see Celitc are continuing their charity work, gifting bottom of the league Livi 3 points in the league Even better Rangers played them next in the cup and won 2-0. Some salt for those wounds!
Celitc got minnows Raith today- they lose that Ange is in real trouble, Celtic fans will be expecting them to put 4 or 5 passed that lot.}}