Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [4]

[Mrs Figg]

OI!! as you can see I am wearing about as many clothes as its possible for a woman to do. and that dress is bloody heavy  

[Pettytyrant101]

I am still confused as to what exactly constitutes modern feminism? Is it taking all your clothes off for money or not?
This is an important question.
There are men in lap dancing bars all over the world could be made to feel so much better if it is.  

[Mrs Figg]

I dont see the connection. Its only a hair brained kid saying it is, why are you believing her?

[Pettytyrant101]

Because she is not alone. Far from it. There are plenty more backing her up, self proclaimed modern feminists.
I find it confusing, I spent the last forty years having it drummed into me that women were not there just to be objects to be looked at- and now the feminists themselves are saying they are there just to be ogled so long as the get paid for it.
I wonder what effect this sort of message is having on young boys growing up and what it forebodes for the future.

[Mrs Figg]

But they are not 'feminists themselves' thats the point. They say they are because it gets kudos, but its blatant hogwash.

[Pettytyrant101]

But thats what concerns me- is it blatant hogswash, in that, do they know it is? Or is this really what a growing number of young women genuinely believe feminism is?
And is a womans right to sell herself feminism? Progress? A step backwards?

[Mrs Figg]

if it sells records hell yeah its hogwash.

[Mrs Figg]

plus you are tarring millions of decent ordinary women who quietly go about their buisness without showing their tits, with the same brush. which is silly.

[Pettytyrant101]

Im not tarring anyone with a brush- but all those silent women are not having an influence on society, young girls are not mimicking their dance moves, young boys arent listening to them say its ok for women to flaunt themselves for financial gain.
Like it or loathe it but the Miley/Gaga/Jordan sort have more effect than all the silent feminists, maybe they need to be a bit less silent.
Because otherwise I suspect the image of women many young folk are getting through the media right now will be one that the silent majority would not wish for.

[Mrs Figg]

I agree with them just shutting the hell up, and its adults fault for letting their children listen to that drivel, and allowing it to go unchallenged. Sinaid Oconnor tried to give Cirus some advice but the little cow just gave her a snide reply after nicking her video visuals. When did pop tarts get to be so powerful? its sick, and there will be a backlash before too long.

[halfwise]

Interesting, we had this conversation a while ago, and it seemed Petty and Figgy were on different sides. Now they seem to be on the same side but desperately trying to see each other on opposite sides.

[halfwise]

I could say my opinion (it's not flattering to Miley but not exactly against her either) but I think I'll let it lay.

Oh damn, I can't help it. Where I agree with Miley is that women should not be ashamed of their sexuality: too often women tend to read sexual overtures from men as degrading, which in many cases is over-reading the situation. Women should feel free to embrace the effects they have on men without the negative connotations.

Where Miley goes wrong is in making it look raunchy rather than empowering.

[David H]

OK, I'll play.  
First I'll say that anybody trying to come up with a single test as to who is or isn't labeled a "Feminist" is going to be doomed to failure. There are just too many diverse groups who all gathered under the same umbrella during the civil rights movement. It's always been an awkward coalition.  

Think about it like the question of who is Scottish, Petty.  Does it include the the immigrant from Africa or Asia? The American whose great granddad emigrated from Scotland in the 19th century and never went back? The Englishman with a family estate in Scotland? They all may claim to be Scottish, but where do you draw the line, and in the end does it really matter? It's just a label, isn't it?

I think what women in the sex trades who claim to be feminists are saying is basically, " I may be doing these things for men, but I'm doing them on MY terms, and any ***** who crosses the line is going to get his eggs cracked. "  Whether that's feminism or not depends on which subgroup of the feminist coalition you're affiliated with. And in the end, does it really matter? It's just a label, isn't it?

[Pettytyrant101]

And in the end, does it really matter? - David

On balance I would yes. No feminism no votes for women, no equal pay ect- these are real tangible changes brought about my determined women who felt they were being treated unfairly- I can get my head round that- this modern presentation of women however I struggle to see what benefits they are trying to achieve but I suspect they will still have an effect, potentially long lasting, as they are the public face of modern women. And that seems like a step backward to me.

[Pettytyrant101]

I know the secret services in the Uk dont like to give anything away, but I think they needed to come up with something better to explain this away-

"The death of MI6 spy Gareth Williams, whose body was found in a padlocked sports bag, was probably an accident, UK police have said."- BBC

An accident?! His body was found zipped and padlocked inside a bag in a bath, that's one hell of an accident. I get how you could maybe zip yourself in from inside it, but how the hell do you padlock it shut from the inside?  

[David H]

On balance I would yes. No feminism no votes for women, no equal pay ect- these are real tangible changes brought about my determined women who felt they were being treated unfairly- I can get my head round that- this modern presentation of women however I struggle to see what benefits they are trying to achieve but I suspect they will still have an effect, potentially long lasting, as they are the public face of modern women. And that seems like a step backward to me.

But the thing is, there've always been these kinds of divisions within organized feminism. That just the nature of building a large enough coalition of women (and men) to effect change.  

For example back in the day there were many women who could lock arms in solidarity on issues like stopping violence against women or equal pay for equal work, but would fight bloody battles among themselves over marriage (a woman's right, or an institution of male oppression) or abortion (a woman's right, or an act of violence against a woman's body).

{{{ I know this. I dated some of them.  }}}

[halfwise]

I know the secret services in the Uk dont like to give anything away, but I think they needed to come up with something better to explain this away-

"The death of MI6 spy Gareth Williams, whose body was found in a padlocked sports bag, was probably an accident, UK police have said."- BBC

Oops!  

[Mrs Figg]

Petty the modern presentation of women that you are talking of is pretty much a narrow strata of pop culture from a narrow strata of that population being teenage to mid twenties, a generation grown up with Jordan and Snookie. Its a distortion of how most young women live, people like Miley Cirus have marketing people behind them, adults who know what sells. She is on a campaign to redesign her career, therefore goes for the only selling point she has, seeing as her musical talents are mediocre, her body. The fact that baffles me is she is given a Platform to speak on, given air time on the BBC, what adult with any sense of responsibility would do that? they are taking a patently cretinous girl quite seriously because yoof culture drives everything today, its given the gravitas it doesnt deserve. and the end result is a generationof kids that buy into this degraded shallow version of 'feminism'.

[David H]

The fact that baffles me is she is given a Platform to speak on, given air time on the BBC, what adult with any sense of responsibility would do that?

I know, and I bet it's even worse over here where the editorial decisions are based almost exclusively on profits and audience share. "Star power" and "shock value" are proven ways for media networks to get ratings. At least the BBC is somewhat isolated from market pressures.

[Pettytyrant101]

At least the BBC is somewhat isolated from market pressures.- David

But only somewhat- in order to justify the license fee they still have to hit target audience shares in different demographics.

[David H]

An accident?! His body was found zipped and padlocked inside a bag in a bath, that's one hell of an accident. :shock:I get how you could maybe zip yourself in from inside it, but how the hell do you padlock it shut from the inside?  

I took a minute to read up on this. As soon as I saw he was a mathematician it all made sense. 

[Mrs Figg]

did he think he was Houdini ?

[halfwise]

Was he a topologist?

[Mrs Figg]

he studied rats?

[David H]

Was he a topologist?

That's what I'm guessing.
And certain theoretical permutations just scream to be tested experimentally.
(Don't ask me how I know..... )