Rioting in the UK

Riots in Tottenham, London last night. The main street there was torched, police cars set alight and 26 police officers injured, 2 hospitialized, oddly not sure how many members of the public were injured- doesn't seem to be getting reported as much, 42 arrests were made.
Seems the trouble started on Thursday night when armed police stopped a taxi and shot someone- someone who it seems was an innocent man, althugh its being investigated by the Police Complaints Commision. However as I heard one of the Chief policeman give a statement in which he refferred to the shooting as 'regretable' I am assuming the police already know this one was a mistake.
Last night a peaceful protest to the police station turned into the full on riot- with police blaming outside criminal elements who took advantage of the situation.
And in among all this of course peoples livlihoods and even homes have been destroyed.
A friend whom I was watching the reports with pointed out nearly all those on the protest and shop window smashing, tv stealing, arsonist side were black and nearly all the police white, something so far not mentioned by media. And whilst I think it is irrelevant what colour of skin the people involved on either side have it is exactly the sort of incident odious groups like the British Nationalist Party and the English Defence League can feed on, and as we saw to our horror in Norway that can lead to very bad places indeed.

Is policing a racially charged issue in the UK? I know that in the US the legacy of institutionalized racism and segregation is still felt some people still have the attitude that cops hate black people. We had city-wide riots in response police brutality as recently as the 1990s (Rodney King) with a long history of similar riots before that. I don't know if the UK has a similar history; most of the London riots I've seen footage of looked like angry Uni kids who think they're anarchists.

I try to see things from a personal level. If my father, brother or son got shot by police, I would want to know how, when, where and why. If the police murdered him, I'd want those police brought to justice. If it was incompetence, I would want the truth to come out. If my father, brother or son gave the police no recourse but to shoot, then I would sadly ask myself, yet again, how, when, where and why? The one thing I would not do is join a maddened crowd and harm or put in fear innocent people, or destroy property. My first question is, who provoked the riot? I'd hazard a guess that very few of the destroyers - not the peaceful protesters - really give a damn about the poor soul who got shot. The proper investigation into the shooting has now been given little chance to be conducted "honestly" because "politics" yet again has raised it's socially dysfunctional head.

"Is policing a racially charged issue in the UK?"- Eldo

Not generally no. But I think more so in England where there are large immigrant populations in some area. Tottenham has had its problems before.
The population of London is so immense (relative to the rest of the UK) its actually suprising this sort of thing doesnt happen more often. There are more people live in London than do in all of Scotland. (5,168,500 -Scotland- 7,172,091 -London at the last census). And a lot of those people are immigrants. And I think the speed of immigration there has not helped. Neighbouroods have completly changed in a generation or two. Indiginous Brits who grew up in a typical white UK town now find as adults they are in a minority, the high street has barely a sign in English and everyone is talking in a variety of languages that are not English. It fuels unwarranted fears and a sense of 'us' and 'them' when of course there is only ever all of 'us'.
The contorversial Police tactic of stop and search also again seems to have a part to play as its used either disproprtionality (or effectviely depening on your pont of view) on immigrant populations.

From the BBC -'South Bank University student Jake Manu, 28, said Mr Duggan's death and the subsequent lack of dialogue from the police triggered the riot.
But he said tensions - some racial - had been bubbling for a long time.
"The police never talk to us, they ignore us, they don't think we're human in this area," he said.
"We get pulled over all the time like criminals. If you're wearing a black hood, [if] you're a black man, they pull you over for no reason."
"But if I wear like a hoody and walk in the road, they'll just call you, check you and search you - that's a breach of your human rights."
He added: "I'm not happy about the rioting, but I think it was necessary so that the people will know what's going on in this community and they'll learn from that."

Youth worker Michelle Jackson, 43, said people were angry that the police were talking to the media but not to Mr Duggan's family.
She also said racial tensions between police and local youths had underpinned events.
"I knew the person that was shot, he's a really nice guy, and they're making him out to be some kind of gangster involved in guns and all that kind of stuff.
"The way the police treat black people is like we're nothing, they handle us really like we're nothing. They speak to the young people like they're nothing."
She said the police needed to engage more with youngsters.
"They pull us out of cars like we're drug dealers. The only reason why people did what they did is because this is the only way we're going to get heard," she said.

Of course this is the MET again whose reputation has been steadly going down the plunger since at least the shooting of Mendez, the poor Brazillian man they mistook for a terrorist and gleefully blew his face off on a public tube train. Then lied about it afterwards, tried to falsely blacken the mans name and stole the station cctv footage because it contradicted them. So maybe they are racist too, who knows. Such a huge organisation which has to draw his members from the public- they ain't all going to have the best interests of community at heart I don't suppose.

I just looked up Menezes on Wikipedia and wow. I'm sure that the media loves to pay attention to controversies but even in just a short year or two following British news the Met has come up again and again in instances like these, like Ian Tomlinson, the man who died after an officer threw him to the ground a few years ago, and the officers who removed their ID numbers before that incident. That things like this keep happening makes me question if there actually is police accountability in London.

I have some sympathy for the MET, as I say above the population of London is greater than all of Scotland and we have 5 seperate Police Forces (for now). As an organisation its huge and having police duties over the political capital means politics are as much a part of it as anything else.
And of course there is more going on here than at first meets the eye. There were more riots last night in London, and they are spreading to different Burroughs both sides of the River. Most of the participants are being reported as 'youths' and most were from ethnic minorities in some of the poorest parts. Now don't get me wrong, most of it was opportuistic theivery and vandalism just because they could get away with it, but in these same areas under the current government they have faced a 75% cut as part of the 'austerity measures', and what has been cut? Not people behind desks, the bulk of the cuts have fallen on Community run youth clubs and services. (The government say charities shoud step in to do this work not tax payers money). But money spent here saves a lot of what we are seeing now and a lot of later adult criminality that need never have happened.
And on top of all this I suspect there is naother game being played, oneof politics between the police and the governemnt. One of the riots the Police did not stop, they did not in fact even respond untill more than a nhour later, by which time the shops in the area had been thoroughly looted. And this at a time when the MET is trying to resist huge cuts to the Police budget. I think their lack of enthusiasm last night in this instence may well have been delibrate.
And then there is the issue of officer morale. In a service where the public now assume association with it is tantamount to corruption.
From Mendez there has been dodgy tactics for dealing with mobs (kettling- so called becasue the tactic involves keeping protesters (peaceful ones mind) confined in set areas without water or toilets until they've built up a sufficient head of steam and trouble starts and then the police have their excuse to head in with the horses- you'd think they'd at least have been smart enough not call it by a name that gave the tactic away!), and there is the hated tactic of 'stop and search' where no suspicion is needed an the officer does have to justify the stopping and searching, then there were a few deaths at various rallies and protests at which the officers were found huilty, and revelations of dodgy illegal police tactics- like removing name badges and ID, infiltrating crowds and encouraging trouble etc),and then the News International scandal broke and we've had police corruption and Chief of the MET dining out regularly and attending lavish parties with the Murdochs and their associates and then declaring there was no evidence to support claims of press phone hacking, and then it all coming out in the wash they had been sitting on the evidence all along.
The average Bobby I suspect is not in the best of spirits right now.

More trouble today.

"A BBC journalist said the latest violence started in Mare Street, Hackney, when a man was stopped and searched by police but nothing was found.
About eight riot vans have been drafted in and there are up to 200 police officers in riot gear in the Hackney area.
Groups of people began attacking the police at about 16:20 BST, throwing rocks and a bin at officers."

The controversial Stop and Search kicking it off this time.

Riots seem to be getting worse, spreading all over the country now.

Imminent societal collapse? It's us intelligentsia who'll be killed first, you know.

No, I think it's the immodest people who will be the first against the wall.

Riots ahoy. Fires blazing across London, Birmgham, Liverpool and a few other places having similar outbreaks of masked looters taking to the streets. No idea whats going on it all a bit mad.
Oh and in other news the world economy seems to have finally drained out the plug hole. Mmmm. Maybe I ought to get out and nick some tv's and stuff.

Riots spreading across so many cities is pretty worrying to me. Stay safe, UK Forumhobbits!

Well its morning in the UK- 7.21 am here to be preciseish. And the total for the nights riots stands at "cities in which there were riots- Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Nottingham and Bristol as well of course as London." Arrets so far "334" and "1,700 extra police officers deployed in London" -info from the BBC website.

Oh those crazy mixed up English!

been taking some time to chill in the last few days, so only really caught up with this today.

Don't really know what to think! I can see the initial catalyst (although yes, the violent, thievery side is inexcusable!), but for it to continue and spread seems incredible.

There have been a few incidences of rioting within cities due to tensions with police, but in my memory it has never really spread like this, having said that, in the current world climate of protest I suppose it is unsurprising that some wish to bring that here (reading that all options, including using the army to keep the peace and a london wide curfew is being considered seems almost surreal )

Stop and search has been contentious for years, particularly in London (was the subject of a review after some incident - forget which, they found that young black men were far more likely to be stopped and serached than their white counterparts, the police countered that in their experience these youngsters were more likely to be carrying weapons or other illegal stuff, new guidelines about the use if stop and search were introduced, but I doubt anyone, guilty or not, likes to be stopped and searched. if it's happening to you and your friends on a regular basis I can undeerstand how infuriating that would be.) Power in any form is going to cause tensions, it is how you try to manage that which is important.

An example of this from near me is the 2001 bradford race riots, where the EDL, (or one of their counterparts), marched through the city and managed to provoke the local Asian community so that a full scale riot broke out. In the aftermath the city took a look at it's policing and links within it's communities. Recently it was the ten year anniversary and the EDL again held a demo, this time however, the city had moved on so much there was barely a ripple, achieved through people talking and listening to one and other!

In terms of the copycat riots, two things. Just like the youth in the arab countries who rioted, this generation of the young are finding there are very few opportunities for them, highest unemployment rate, ema for study cut and uni fees rising, will be working longer till retirement and probably have a lot less chances than their parents and grandparents (particulalry the baby boomers!). Support for community projects is also being cut as Petty says, giving them less support.

Finally, with my teacher head on, the notion that you should respect those in authority or your elders has gone from general parenting. Teachers have been saying this for years! The idea that kids have now, from their parents, is I should only respect you if you respect me first (I would be very rich if I had a penny for everytime a child yelled that at me!) the problem is, they equate any curtailment of what they want as a lack of respect. So when challenged by the police in any capacity there are a growing number who respond with bluster and rudeness, just as they did at school! And as human beings we have a tendancy to respond in kind!

Having coached a lot of kids in sport and been involved as a sports official over many years, and have had dealings with plenty as a cop and parent, and I have to say, most kids are respectful, though they may be more prepared to question you than they may have years ago when kids were seen and not heard. No one likes being shown up for a hypocrite, and kids who do point it out to you are not really disrespectful, just asking you to earn respect like you do them. These riots are a different thing. Political elements fire them up and criminals and bored others follow them for the cheap thrill. All the rest is bullshit.

Orwell wrote:Having coached a lot of kids in sport and been involved as a sports official over many years, I have to say, most kids are respectful, though they may be more prepared to question you than they may have years ago when kids were seen and not heard. No one likes being shown for a hypocrite, and kids who do point it out to you are not really disrespectful, just asking you to earn respect like you do them.

I have to agree that most are still respectful, but not all the questioning is about earning respect, a lot is delibrate diversion tactics to get what they want. Don't get me wrong, I unfortunately work with teachers who believe that kids should simply put up and shut up, I am not one of them, (will admit to kids when I am wrong, pulled a year eleven student out of a lesson before now when I made a mistake to apologise to him) But there is a group who think they are never in the wrong, will argue black is white, will be incredibly rude to you then throw in the 'why should I repsect you, you don't respect me' - along with the 'you're bullying me' when you insist they abide by simple rules of respect (not calling his exgirlfriend a fat whore across the room for example or a cheapskate when she spent 100 quid on a secondhand electrical device for his birthday - cos it wasn't new!) I have also found that the kids act differently in different situations, which I am sure you know, in fact our core group of awkward lads in the year just gone were all on the sports teams, and were generally well behaved and respectful on the field, but not so much off it!

These riots are a different thing. Bad elements fire them up and criminals and bored others follow them for the cheap thrill. All the rest is bullshit.

Have to agreed with that to a great extent too!

I was in a rush, Kafria, and I returned and made a couple of edits before I saw your post. Hope you can still agree! Though, these over-generalisations scare me. Am I a reactionary, a visionary, or just a bulldust artist? - maybe a bit of all three???

Kafria wrote:But there is a group who think they are never in the wrong, will argue black is white, will be incredibly rude to you then throw in the 'why should I repsect you, you don't respect me' - along with the 'you're bullying me' when you insist they abide by simple rules of respect (not calling his exgirlfriend a fat whore across the room for example or a cheapskate when she spent 100 quid on a secondhand electrical device for his birthday - cos it wasn't new!) I have also found that the kids act differently in different situations, which I am sure you know, in fact our core group of awkward lads in the year just gone were all on the sports teams, and were generally well behaved and respectful on the field, but not so much off it!

These were the ones out rioting, no doubt!

If it happened locally they would be at the top of my list of suspects!

My tangential thinking has kicked into gear (don't ask me why it happens Kafria) and I'm now wondering about the spoiling of children. When parents spoil children they ruin them, or at least, that's what I was brought up to believe. You know, "spare the rod, spoil the child"; that kind of thing. But, if so, how does "childhood spoling" manifest itself in adults? Do you have any idea? {{{{{And could it explain Odo and Petty's antics?}}}}}

Some are opportunistic thugs, jumping on the bandwagon, others are probably disillusioned youths angry that they can't get jobs and people with degrees are doing non graduate/menial jobs.

So I have a little bit of sympathy with the rioters, though of course I cannot condone the burglary or the violence. Anyway I'm more the sort of person who gets involved in classy skirmishes by the swings, a bottle of lamrini in one hand, a hammer a stick in the other!

Ally wrote:Some are opportunistic thugs, jumping on the bandwagon, others are probably disillusioned youths angry that they can't get jobs and people with degrees are doing non graduate/menial jobs.

Note italized words above, Ally. Rioting vandals? This thought is quite disturbing.

Orwell wrote:

Ally wrote:Some are opportunistic thugs, jumping on the bandwagon, others are probably disillusioned youths angry that they can't get jobs and people with degrees are doing non graduate/menial jobs.

Note italized words above, Ally. Rioting vandals? This thought is quite disturbing.

I'm not sure if I quite understand the point you are trying to make there, but I understand that the trouble wasn't caused by legitimate political protest which spilt into violence, more of a case that mindless criminal activity was encouraged when the first trouble in Tottenham broke out, the reasons for the trouble originally now long forgotten.

Orwell wrote:My tangential thinking has kicked into gear (don't ask me why it happens Kafria) and I'm now wondering about the spoiling of children. When parents spoil children they ruin them, or at least, that's what I was brought up to believe. You know, "spare the rod, spoil the child"; that kind of thing. But, if so, how does "childhood spoling" manifest itself in adults? Do you have any idea? {{{{{And could it explain Odo and Petty's antics?}}}}}

hmmmmm! my own thinking on this is quite simple. Spoiling a child - as it used to be coined (picking up baby when he cries, giving them things they want) is not the problem. Spoiling is not acting like a parent and saying no, not teaching them there are consequences to their actions. the children who we have trouble with at school are those whose parents, can't or won't do this. They retreat from the fight for an easy life or so their kids 'still love them'. These kids learn that by being cheeky, rude or persistant enough they get what they want. in some ways a lot of the materialistic and fame hungry attitudes of today could spring from this. I want it so I shold have it, may also explain a lot of youngsters disatisfaction with life. We seem to be telling our kids that they can all be rockstars if they want it enough, of course they then become disatisfied if their life doesn't pan out!

"of course they then become disatisfied if their life doesn't pan out"- Kafria

You mean 99% of them then!
I am reminded of what my dear old Da said to me when I was but a bairn, "Insey," he said (short for insey-winsey, I was only a kid not yet Petty) "Insey lad. Life is sh*t. If you are really lucky a lot of it you will spend upside down in a barrel drunk as a skunk, life will still be sh*t but at least now you will going with the flow." Very wise, stayed with me ever since, all the way to the bottom of my barrel in fact.

Saw this quote earlier which for me sums up where things are at with the riots- "Hackney MP Diane Abbott said a London-wide curfew should be considered" Diane Abbott is the darling of the left of the Labour Party. She is normally first out of the traps sreaming police harassment of innocent protesters etc. When she is calling for the police to impose a curfew the world really has gone topsy-turvy!

Olympics held in London next year- never mind Al-Queda or any of that lot, we don't need them, Londoners will pull their own country down first! I don't know how this will affect Scotland, so far so good it hasn't happened here (possibly because if you set fire to a Glasgowegian shop its owner doesn't watch it burn to the ground on the tv but gathers a few pals and hunts all the arsonists down with some very big sticks!) i am getting inncreasingly annoyed at news agencies referring to UK wide riots- they are not, so far, UK wide- they are all in England. At the moment, whatever this is, it looks like an English problem. (And I hope it stays that way- I wonder if the fact Wales, Scotland and NI all have their own pariaments has anything to do with this- the disenfranchised English.