My Kickstarter campaign for my new book, "Middle-earth Lore: Tolkien's Legends Revealed,"

My Kickstarter campaign for my new book, "Middle-earth Lore: Tolkien's Legends Revealed," is now live! Please help us spread the word to any Middle-earth fans who might be interested in buying the book.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tolkien/middle-earth-lore?ref=creator-nav

{{ Long time no see! I cant help but note that whilst I have been drunk and knowing my place youve been very unhobbitlike and been busy and becoming one of those newfangled writers again! It's good to see you back, even if it is with a sales pitch! (you of course get a pass due to good form and interaction with the forum on your last enterprise).

Two things struck me reading the blurb for your book, firstly are you aware of the Doggerland idea of ME? I don't mean that it was actually all real and set there (though the fact some folk believe that may be pertinent to your subject for what it says of people's desire for it to be real) but rather by drawing on the ancient myths and legions of Northern Europe, which included memories of those lost lands, that he accidentally recreated the general outline and placement of things in that land?

And the other thing was the military aspect you are taking on, that would be of interest to me, one of my favourite parts of UT is the account of what happened to Isildur, it's presented like the recounting of a historic battle and it's one of the few places Tolkien goes right into the military tactics used, style of shield walls, defensive formations and such. I've always loved that and long thought a good idea for a Tolkien tv series would be a history show, totally straight faced in line with Tolkien's conceit as translator only, going to the 'real' historic areas that remain, doing fake excavations whilst explaining the battles and stuff much in the style of UT. }}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ Long time no see! I cant help but note that whilst I have been drunk and knowing my place youve been very unhobbitlike and been busy and becoming one of those newfangled writers again! It's good to see you back, even if it is with a sales pitch! (you of course get a pass due to good form and interaction with the forum on your last enterprise).

Two things struck me reading the blurb for your book, firstly are you aware of the Doggerland idea of ME? I don't mean that it was actually all real and set there (though the fact some folk believe that may be pertinent to your subject for what it says of people's desire for it to be real) but rather by drawing on the ancient myths and legions of Northern Europe, which included memories of those lost lands, that he accidentally recreated the general outline and placement of things in that land?

And the other thing was the military aspect you are taking on, that would be of interest to me, one of my favourite parts of UT is the account of what happened to Isildur, it's presented like the recounting of a historic battle and it's one of the few places Tolkien goes right into the military tactics used, style of shield walls, defensive formations and such. I've always loved that and long thought a good idea for a Tolkien tv series would be a history show, totally straight faced in line with Tolkien's conceit as translator only, going to the 'real' historic areas that remain, doing fake excavations whilst explaining the battles and stuff much in the style of UT. }}

It's great to be back! And yes, book work has consumed my time. But soon enough I will be caught up and be around for more then just promotion

I was not familiar with doggerland. I just hope to convey Tolkien's own perspective of ME. That it was a "real" world (even if imaginary) that he discovered, not a purposeful creation. Something that was reveled to him and that it should be understood as an authentic world.

That would be an amazing idea for a show! I would love that. Perhaps it will be done, anything that can make money has a chance.

Yes I use UT (and cite Disaster of the Gladden Fields) many times as weapons, formations and such are mentioned. What I hope to demonstrate is that Tolkien gave us much more information on weapons, tactics, size of armies etc then most readers recognize. I do however, also rely on various scholars estimations as well when it is needed. Also, count on some vague generalizations as well.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ Long time no see! I cant help but note that whilst I have been drunk and knowing my place youve been very unhobbitlike and been busy and becoming one of those newfangled writers again! It's good to see you back, even if it is with a sales pitch! (you of course get a pass due to good form and interaction with the forum on your last enterprise).

Two things struck me reading the blurb for your book, firstly are you aware of the Doggerland idea of ME? I don't mean that it was actually all real and set there (though the fact some folk believe that may be pertinent to your subject for what it says of people's desire for it to be real) but rather by drawing on the ancient myths and legions of Northern Europe, which included memories of those lost lands, that he accidentally recreated the general outline and placement of things in that land?

And the other thing was the military aspect you are taking on, that would be of interest to me, one of my favourite parts of UT is the account of what happened to Isildur, it's presented like the recounting of a historic battle and it's one of the few places Tolkien goes right into the military tactics used, style of shield walls, defensive formations and such. I've always loved that and long thought a good idea for a Tolkien tv series would be a history show, totally straight faced in line with Tolkien's conceit as translator only, going to the 'real' historic areas that remain, doing fake excavations whilst explaining the battles and stuff much in the style of UT. }}

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Also, thank you for your interest.

{{ When you find the time you will find a post or two from me covering the Doggerland idea here, https://www.forumshire.com/t115p875-tolkien-in-general#245785 I think it will interest you. And welcome back though your timing is suspicious, another week or two Odo would have got Angmar and Sons to auction off your hole, and I had my eyes on your bookcase too }}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ When you find the time you will find a post or two from me covering the Doggerland idea here, https://www.forumshire.com/t115p875-tolkien-in-general#245785 I think it will interest you. And welcome back    though your timing is suspicious, another week or two Odo would have got Angmar and Sons to auction off your hole, and I had my eyes on your bookcase too }}

I would love to look into it as it also touches on my interest.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ When you find the time you will find a post or two from me covering the Doggerland idea here, https://www.forumshire.com/t115p875-tolkien-in-general#245785 I think it will interest you. And welcome back    though your timing is suspicious, another week or two Odo would have got Angmar and Sons to auction off your hole, and I had my eyes on your bookcase too }}

Ok, I read up on some of your post. Could it not be that the "legends" and "myths" and other writings that Tolkien studied contained elements of truth (as he believed that they did) and thus were Incorporated into Middle-earth?

{{ Yes indeed, that was pretty much the conclusion of the original idea, not the present mad idea that the Red Book was real, but rather by using the sources he did Tolkien, by accident, recreated the ancient landscape of northern Europe before it sank, or at least something closely approximating it (in Tolkien's day Doggerland was suspected but not confirmed and there were no maps of it like there are today). }}

{{ As far as I can tell the theory originated here, at least that's as far back to a source as I've been able to find- }}

https://thesaxoncross.substack.com/p/tolkien-and-ice-age-europe-pt-2

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ As far as I can tell the theory originated here, at least that's as far back to a source as I've been able to find- }}

https://thesaxoncross.substack.com/p/tolkien-and-ice-age-europe-pt-2

Thank you, I will dig into it more when I have time.

There's some problems which this guy studiously avoids.  To see it you have to avoid most of his map overlays which are completely unreadable - only one map lets you see doggerland and middle earth clearly:



And it's clear the Misty Mountains don't fit at all.  The White Mountains are also not so good, with Rohan too surrounded by mountains to make sense. To his credit the guy does address the Black sea, but it all doesn't fit well enough for me to find it convincing. I can see Tolkien taking the idea of the map of Europe at this time and deciding he had space to work with, but I don't see him doing the detailed matchups.

{{ The idea isn't Tolkien did this deliberately, Doggerland was not even confirmed in Tolkien's day let alone its extent mapped he could not have done it deliberately, rather that the ME he recreated out of the old myths bears a remarkable similarity to that lost land precisely because Tolkien backward engineered it from the myths, not intentionally but just as a by-product of his work. I would not expect it to be exact from such a casual method, in fact it's remarkable it's so similar. }}

That's not what the author is saying: he's very specific about lining up Osgiliath with Constantinople and the Shire with Doggerland, then very clearly claims that Tolkien lined up Middle Earth sites with old Europe sites. He has a whole section about how the Black Sea can be Dagorlad because Tolkien mentions offhand some later flooding; he crows about the Bay of Forechel lining up with the Denmark area. He talks about deliberately modifying the coastline of the mediterranean to make it less obvious.

In short he's totally, absolutely saying that Tolkien did a very deliberate point by point line up of ice age Europe to Middle Earth.

{{ I just linked to that because as far as I can tell that's where it all started. If you read my original post you will find this from me-
'There are so many obvious reasons as to why this is nonsense that I won't insult you with going through them...'

I then go onto the later much more sane theory that it is an accidental reconstruction drawn from the myths and legends of N Europe Tolkien loved. }}

Ok, so long as you are on the side of the sane.

{{ I'm on whichever side has a bar And after a few hours of buckie not sure that's strictly still the sane side }}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ I'm on whichever side has a bar And after a few hours of buckie not sure that's strictly still the sane side }}

I am sure we would get along nicely

{{ I'll drink with anyone, well anyone who is getting the next the round in that is }}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ I'll drink with anyone, well anyone who is getting the next the round in that is }}

That is my policy as well, so we will need a third wheel

{{ Halfy! It must be your round then }}

I was at the pub with friends last night, still recovering.  But I take it the weekend is open?

halfwise wrote:I was at the pub with friends last night, still recovering.     But I take it the weekend is open?

Preorder for eBook now available!

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CV9D26V3?ref_=pe_93986420_775043100

halfwise wrote:There's some problems which this guy studiously avoids.  To see it you have to avoid most of his map overlays which are completely unreadable - only one map lets you see doggerland and middle earth clearly:



And it's clear the Misty Mountains don't fit at all.  The White Mountains are also not so good, with Rohan too surrounded by mountains to make sense.  To his credit the guy does address the Black sea, but it all doesn't fit well enough for me to find it convincing.  I can see Tolkien taking the idea of the map of Europe at this time and deciding he had space to work with, but I don't see him doing the detailed matchups.

Hey, careful who you call a Northern waste

bilbobaggins wrote:Preorder for eBook now available!

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CV9D26V3?ref_=pe_93986420_775043100

Bad jokes aside, this seems the news