Jews, Celts, and genealogy

Well I was adopted, Jewess from the House of King David into a Celtic Family. Some Celtic families were originally Jewish immigrants that migrated , probably for the sake of the gospel, who knows. And my adopted Nan on one side "Granny Mathews' was amazing Petty. She was a tall pretty Scotswoman who had born seventeen bairns, one died at three and when I came to know her she was retired and living across the street. Her real grandson and my most beloved friend and brother Nelson Douglas would toddle over and knock on the door, for she always had fresh ginger snaps ready. But she also some how wangled respectable Dutch, Irish, English, Cymru etc grandmothers to her house to play 'strip poker'. I still blush at that fact. The elderly ladies would come beautifully coiffed and decked out and wearing like a hundred layers of blouses and fancy bobby pins in their lovely hair. And there would be my Nan dealing out the cards with only one hand, the other was paralyzed from a stroke.(though sometimes to my horror it involuntarily swung out and would hit me. I was hysterical inside but said nothing for she was so kind to me) Granny Mathews of course always won and some of the ladies would wipe their eyes and cry but they always were there next week. And she wore dreadful big bonnets for some reason( left over from the cold house she lived in in Scotland perhaps) and her night gown and when she was caring for me she would have to coax me into the bed with her 'Coom ta be lovey, I no eat ya" she would say because she reminded me of the wolf in red riding hood. And she swigged plenty of gin dear Petty.
But I loved her and honored her with all my heart. So you see, it is still possible yes?

"But she also some how wangled respectable Dutch, Irish, English, Cymru etc grandmothers to her house to play 'strip poker'....And she swigged plenty of gin."

Definently Scottish.

Where did you get the idea Celtic and Jewish tribes were connected? Very curious as I have an interests in early history and a theory about contact between Ireland/Scotland and the Middle-east going back as far, at least, as the Early Bronze Age.

Oh Granny was a wolf, you know,
A wolf who played strip poker,
And all the elderly around,
Thought her the perfect joker.

Come to my bed, sweet child, said she,
Don't be afraid, I will not eat ye,
She said it to her sweet leelee,
And so leelee cuddled up with she.

Oh how leelee loved her Granny,
For her Granny was a one-and-only,
And not some preaching screeching
pretending blue-rinse phoney..


"LEELEE's GRANNY" by John Grisham.

As Channelled by
You-know-who.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:"But she also some how wangled respectable Dutch, Irish, English, Cymru etc grandmothers to her house to play 'strip poker'....And she swigged plenty of gin."

Definently Scottish.

Where did you get the idea Celtic and Jewish tribes were connected? Very curious as I have an interests in early history and a theory about contact between Ireland/Scotland and the Middle-east going back as far, at least, as the Early Bronze Age.

It is not an idea dear Hobbit, it is fact.
A member of my family , thirty five, has been researching and writing a book on it and has had immense interest from scholar around the world. In my life I have never seen such research, nothing gets past him, he is a true elf and has elven eyes for finding out things. In fact many aboriginal tribes here such as some from the Okanagan, the Saanich, the Haida and others are very interested in finding out their roots, he has traced many from Scotland, Ireland, Manx, Japan and Mongol to name a few. Hebrew records and family records hidden even surviving holocaust show that after the death of Jesus of Nazareth, even despite the vicious persecutions and murders, there were substantial numbers, in obedience to the command by Jesus to show his love and tell about him throughout the world, records that show many went abroad, like Phillip to India, others to France and all of Europe. The Celtic woman who raised me traced her ancestry of a certain clan of the Mathews to the disciple of Jesus, Mathew, the former tax collector, many went to Scotland and Ireland and some later on created a version of the Goddess Danu from their mythological stories coming from the tribe of Dan, not the myths currently known. A family member noted how odd it was that someone from the clan of the Mathews , formerly of Jerusalem should end up by 'chance' taking me a Jewess descended from the House of King David into their home and life. And because there are so few of we Jews, not Israelites, they are our brothers from Abraham and Sarah's union, then Isaac and Rebekkah and then through the one twin Jacob who was later named by God Israel. Judah, from which Jesus and the prophecies come was the eldest brother and we come thru him. King David's house came down and so on , us through the sad union of Solomon and Bathshua. Complicated but all life seems to be. And so back to my point because there are so few of us there is currently a blood bank now in Jerusalem which has collected all Jews left who wanted, our dna to keep a permanent record. And strangely there is also legend of a tall peoples from ancient times, a Kingly group, all royal who were with slightly pointed ears and did strange things, they might have been in flight or exile, and they were Jews. And even in Pharoah's time , the Pharoah that made Joseph, also a son of Jacob or Israel as he was known, gave Joseph Asenath the Egyptian as wife and he had two sons who were given prophetic blessings. So..
I hope you find through diligent research what you are looking for dear Petty. You know that name does not suit you. I close my eyes and I think more like Kalamalka. I think that fits you much better. It is aboriginal for Lake of Many Colors. I catch glimpses of your personality and it so rich and deep.

That's a new facet of history to me. Does your knowledge come through textural/archeological evidence, or family oral history and folklore --- or both?

Its a new one on me too. There is some limited archeological evidence, beads from the Middle-east, there are a few stone circles and megalithic monuments in the ME which are the same style and design as those in northern europe. There was certainly trade between the north of europe and the ME and Med going back probably at least to 2000bc, most likely much earlier. However St Patrick is generally considered to have brought Christianity to Celtic Ireland, where in a remarkable short amount of time it was adopted by the many Celtic schools there. There is much speculation about why they took Christianity on board so quickly and without much in the way of dissent, the most likely reason is similar beliefs such as resurrection, and in Mary they say their own Goddess. The Celtic Church that emerged was however quite distinct from any other form of Christianty and retained much of the old religions themes, especially around nature and the femine.
I have never heard of a Jewish clan or tribe coming here however let alone settling or influencing in any fashion.
I would be very interested in hearing more as I believe there may be a link between the Book of Enoch and the religous ceremonies practicsed in Britain and Ireland at that time.

Wisey Banks wrote:Oh Granny was a wolf, you know,
A wolf who played strip poker,
And all the elderly around,
Thought her the perfect joker.

Come to my bed, sweet child, said she,
Don't be afraid, I will not eat ye,
She said it to her sweet leelee,
And so leelee cuddled up with she.

Oh how leelee loved her Granny,
For her Granny was a one-and-only,
And not some preaching screeching
pretending blue-rinse phoney..


"LEELEE's GRANNY" by John Grisham.

As Channelled by
You-know-who.

Wisey, that was brilliant. My Granny Mathews would have invited you over for tea and ginger snaps, then swapped it for Irish whiskey and scones and then proceeded to tell you line by line how the poem should have been. But I truly do love it. Thank you dear.

Orwell wrote:That's a new facet of history to me. Does your knowledge come through textural/archeological evidence, or family oral history and folklore --- or both?

Because of the extensive persecution and the consistant destruction of written histories and personal geneologies , especialy in such times as the Hitler regime, much over the ages was kept family to family and not shared for fear of it being wiped out once more. So ..........However with the amazing archeological digs lately , especially under ground and just outside the gates of Jerusalem, so much about our ancient past , our covenant with God which originated by Abraham , he being called out from the Ur of the Chaldeas and his descendants , is being presented at long last to the world and even more amazing, the findings are perfectly fulfilling and documenting the reality of the prophecies to the smallest scintilla, so we are becoming at least a little more , not much though. Where my adopted father moved to before his untimely death, not five miles away, an enormous nazi compound was built and you could hear the old 45's blaring out Hitler's messages. It was unnerving. I only journeyed there once and called it a day.
And in fulfillment of an ancient prophecy the nation of Israel was born despite everyone except basically America against us. And later in fulfillment of the prophecy that God would put in the heart of all these covenanted people ( God had covenant with other peoples too. i.e. once our people were journeying in ancient times through the desert and God forbid us to bother a certain group of people or their land or anything because God had coveant with them.) who we were and further gather us as a spiritual nation , and phsyical as well . That strange phenomina happened in the seventies and the eighties at least. you may remember at least stories of the Falasha from Africa insisting they were Jewish and how they when theywere able to prove to satisfaction the truth of that claim, calmly said goodbye to the only home they knew , climbed aboard the silver bird and sat calmly through hours and hours of flight, then came joyfully down the ramps and kissed the ground-they were home. Just do your research for your own particular family lines you will probably find a great deal more in some cases than a general historian who can only pick so much at a time to study.All I found was 'the ten lost tribes and an over view and other stuff.

There are so many studies done on geneologies by royals from different countries that don't want a watered down or hushed up or sanitized 'truth'.
Here is one site you might be interested in , others you can find alone.

Dear friends in the world,

I am a Japanese writer living in Japan. As I study the Bible, I began to realize that many traditional customs and ceremonies in Japan are very similar to the ones of ancient Israel. I considered that perhaps these rituals came from the religion and customs of the Jews and the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel who might have come to ancient Japan.

The following sections are concerned with those Japanese traditions which possibly originated from the ancient Israelites.

The reason why I exhibit these on the Internet is to enable anyone interested in this subject, especially Jewish friends to become more interested, research it for yourself, and share your findings. You can look up the site, I did not actually find a name for it , but the pictures are amazing of the ceremonies.

- Arimasa Kubo

Israelites Came To Ancient Japan

Many of the traditional ceremonies in Japan seem to indicate that the Lost Tribes of Israel came to ancient Japan.


Ark of the covenant of Israel (left) and "Omikoshi" ark of Japan (right)

In Nagano prefecture, Japan, there is a large Shinto shrine named "Suwa-Taisha" (Shinto is the national traditional religion peculiar to Japan.)

At Suwa-Taisha, the traditional festival called "Ontohsai" is held on April 15 every year (When the Japanese used the lunar calendar it was March-April). This festival illustrates the story of Isaac in chapter 22 of Genesis in the Bible - when Abraham was about to sacrifice his own son, Isaac. The "Ontohsai" festival, held since ancient days, is judged to be the most important festival of "Suwa-Taisha."


The "Suwa-Taisha" shrine

At the back of the shrine "Suwa-Taisha," there is a mountain called Mt. Moriya ("Moriya-san" in Japanese). The people from the Suwa area call the god of Mt. Moriya "Moriya no kami," which means, the "god of Moriya." This shrine is built to worship the "god of Moriya."

At the festival, a boy is tied up by a rope to a wooden pillar, and placed on a bamboo carpet. A Shinto priest comes to him preparing a knife, and he cuts a part of the top of the wooden pillar, but then a messenger (another priest) comes there, and the boy is released. This is reminiscent of the Biblical story in which Isaac was released after an angel came to Abraham.

The knife and sword used in the "Ontohsai" festival

At this festival, animal sacrifices are also offered. 75 deer are sacrificed, but among them it is believed that there is a deer with its ear split. The deer is considered to be the one God prepared. It could have had some connection with the ram that God prepared and was sacrificed after Isaac was released. Since the ram was caught in the thicket by the horns, the ear might have been split.

In ancient time of Japan there were no sheep and it might be the reason why they used deer (deer is Kosher). Even in historic times, people thought that this custom of deer sacrifice was strange, because animal sacrifice is not a Shinto tradition.

My friend went to Israel and saw a Passover festival on Mt. Gerizim in Samaria. He asked a Samaritan priest how many rams were offered. The priest answered that they used to offer 75. This may have a connection with the 75 deer which were offered at Suwa-Taisha shrine in Japan.


Abraham and Isaac

People call this festival "the festival for Misakuchi-god". "Misakuchi" might be "mi-isaku-chi." "Mi" means "great," "isaku" is most likely Isaac (the Hebrew word "Yitzhak"), and "chi" is something for the end of the word. It seems that the people of Suwa made Isaac a god, probably by the influence of idol worshipers.

Today, this custom of the boy about to be sacrificed and then released, is no longer practiced, but we can still see the custom of the wooden pillar called "oniye-basira," which means, "sacrifice-pillar."



The "oniye-bashira" on which the boy is supposed to be tied up

Currently, people use stuffed animals instead of performing a real animal sacrifice. Tying a boy along with animal sacrifice was regarded as savage by people of the Meiji-era (about 100 years ago), and those customs were discontinued. However, the festival itself still remains.

The custom of the boy had been maintained until the beginning of Meiji era. Masumi Sugae, who was a Japanese scholar and a travel writer in the Edo era (about 200 years ago), wrote a record of his travels and noted what he saw at Suwa. The record shows the details of "Ontohsai." It tells that the custom of the boy about to be sacrificed and his ultimate release, as well as animal sacrifices that existed those days. His records are kept at the museum near Suwa-Taisha.

The festival of "Ontohsai" has been maintained by the Moriya family ever since ancient times. The Moriya family think of "Moriya-no-kami" (god of Moriya) as their ancestor's god. They also consider "Mt. Moriya" as their holy place. The name, "Moriya," could have come from "Moriah" (the Hebrew word "Moriyyah") of Genesis 22:2, that is today's Temple Mount of Jerusalem. Among Jews, God of Moriah means the one true God whom the Bible teaches.

The Moriya family have been hosting the festival for 78 generations. And the curator of the museum said to me that the faith in the god of Moriya had existed among the people since the time of B.C.E.

Apparently, no other country but Japan has a festival illustrating the biblical story of Abraham and Isaac. This tradition appears to provide strong evidence that the ancient Israelites came to ancient Japan.


Japanese Religious Priests "Yamabushi" Put A Black Box on their Foreheads Just As Jews Put A Phylactery on their Foreheads.

"Yamabushi" is a religious man in training unique to Japan. Today, they are thought to belong to Japanese Buddhism. However, Buddhism in China, Korea and India have no such custom. The custom of "yamabushi" existed in Japan before Buddhism was imported into Japan in the seventh century.

On the forehead of "Yamabushi," he puts a black small box called a "tokin", which is tied to his head with a black cord. He greatly resembles a Jew putting on a phylactery (black box) on his forehead with a black cord. The size of this black box "tokin" is almost the same as the Jewish phylactery, but its shape is round and flower-like.


A "yamabushi" with a "tokin" blowing a horn

Originally the Jewish phylactery placed on the forehead seems to have come from the forehead "plate" put on the high priest Aaron with a cord (Exodus 28:36-38). It was about 4 centimeters (1.6 inches) in size according to folklore, and some scholars maintain that it was flower-shaped. If so, it was very similar to the shape of the Japanese "tokin" worn by the "yamabushi".




A Jew with a phylactery blowing a shofar

Israel and Japan are the only two countries that in the world I know of that use of the black forehead box for religious purpose.

Furthermore, the "yamabushi" use a big seashell as a horn. This is very similar to Jews blowing a shofar or ram's horn. The way it is blown and the sounds of the "yamabushi's" horn are very similar to those of a shofar. Because there are no sheep in Japan, the "yamabushi" had to use seashell horns instead of rams' horns.

"Yamabushis" are people who regard mountains as their holy places for religious training. The Israelites also regarded mountains as their holy places. The Ten Commandments of the Torah were given on Mt. Sinai. Jerusalem is a city on a mountain.

In Japan, there is the legend of "Tengu" who lives on a mountain and has the figure of a "yamabushi". He has a pronounced nose and supernatural capabilities. A "ninja", who was an agent or spy in the old days, while working for his lord, goes to "Tengu" at the mountain to get from him supernatural abilities. "Tengu" gives him a "tora-no-maki" (a scroll of the "tora") after giving him additional powers. This "scroll of the tora" is regarded as a very important book which is helpful for any crisis. Japanese use this word sometimes in their current lives.

There is no knowledge that a real scroll of a Jewish Torah was ever found in a Japanese historical site. However, it appears this "scroll of the tora" is a derivation of the Jewish Torah.

if you are interested in looking at the underground , well a few of the pictures, you can go on Google and then The Blaze. They are quite astounding.
Ii think the Russian peoples and the Danes and well just everybody has such a profound history. It gives me butterflies in the stomach.
And ......................all these things have absolutely nothing to do with dead easy rules. . sorry.

Wow! I say, "Wow!" Have to say, leelee, you have brought a new "atmosphere" to add to the multifaceted "atmospheres" already here. Excellent! Into my books and the internet I shall delve - when time allows.

As to to your posts here not really logically belonging here, all I can say is, "Now you're getting the idea!"

I suspect this post might be lengthy as there is so much to respond to leelee (Eldo you may wish to move this conversation elsewhere- though not sure where 'Theran Theories'? Maybe?).

The Omikoshi ceremony in Japan you mention does indeed bear a remarkable resemblance to the story of issac and Abraham in the Bible, however there is no evidence it was begun by one of the Jewish lost tribes displaced or moved to Japan, rather it can be traced to one family who still maintain it today, the Moriya family. I habe been unable to locate any evidence that the Moriya family are or are not Jewish in descent, a DNA test would be helpful but if such information is available I have not been able to locate it. (The site you quote from does give evidence using DNA but as it offers no comparisons to average percents in nonjewish populations the figures ar emeaningless, and worse make me suspicous as its a classic way of making something seem to support your argument strongly when in fact it does not) On the evidence the ceremony is either a surprising but seperate parrallel ceremony (which seeems unlikely), or the result of the influence on a few powerful Japanese families of early Jewish missionaries. Nevertheless there remains a possibility it is one of the Lost Tribes, assuming they ever left and weren't just wiped out or assimilated into other groups (which has always semed most likely to me).

The tribe in Africa which claims Jewish descent has always seemed perfectly plausable to me, its not that far relatively speaking and trade and nowledge of each other was already long established at least as far back as early Egypt and I believe DNA testing has been carried out which supports the theory. Wether or not they are one of the missing tribes is another matter, it is equally plausible (maybe more so) that they were simply a group of Jews who slowly over several generations moved further and further into Africa, perhaps because of trade or weather patterns or animal migrations. The DNA says they share a commmon and close heritage with Jews who remained in the Holy Land, it does not say whose exactly or how they got there.

However your other earlier claim about European descent from Jewish lost tribes I find highly contentious historically. Northern Europe had a distinct religion which predates the existence of the Jewish peoples by at lease a few thousand years. Stone Henge was built before the Pyramids, Skara Brae dates to 3180bc. My own belief is that information was going the other way, from northern europe to the Middle East, and that the traditions it began became parts of the embryonic Jewish religion (this is why the Celtic Church found Christianity so esy to adopt in my opinion, it was in themes their own religion coming back in a new form). By the time of Jesus this line of religous thought begun in Northern Europe was most strongly represented by the Essenes, who revered works such as the Book of Enoch and practiced a much more mystic, magical, asronomical form of Judiasm. In all my study of this I have found no evidence or theories claiming any of the lost tribes were involved, Christinaity and by association Judiasm were unknown here until after the time of Christ when the first Missionaries began arriving.

There, that wasn't too long afterall!

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I suspect this post might be lengthy as there is so much to respond to leelee (Eldo you may wish to move this conversation elsewhere- though not sure where 'Theran Theories'? Maybe?)

I went ahead and gave it a separate thread since it's getting so long. Normally I don't split tangents but when they're this off-topic I think they're better served by having their own threads.

Quite right. There is off topic and then there is new topic. I think this qualifies as the latter. Got to have some modicum of order even here.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Quite right. There is off topic and then there is new topic. I think this qualifies as the latter. Got to have some modicum of order even here.

Sure!

Just so...

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Quite right. There is off topic and then there is new topic. I think this qualifies as the latter. Got to have some modicum of order even here.

Are you sure this is true, I meant.

Trueish?

I don't post for one week and look what you guys do to this place.